Toro

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Aardvark
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Toro

Post by Aardvark »

Evening chaps,

After using the usual spray/dust method for rolling TT's, I'm not satisfied with the finished result. It seems my method was slightly off, along with the general issues related to rolling charcoal stars.

Arran has kindly recommended the Toro method of rolling and it seems like that'd suit charcoal based compositions quite well. Then there's the hitch! I believe the method is explained in a few books but I'm struggling to find any information online.

Have any of you guys used the method before? Any advice is very welcome.

Thanks folks,

Sam.
Tyvole
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Re: Toro

Post by Tyvole »

Hi Sam, if you have a copy of Shimizu FAST*, it's described on p186.

*Google 'Takeo Shimizu' and you'll probably find a free download. ;-)
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Aardvark
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Re: Toro

Post by Aardvark »

Gooooood stuff! Thanks mate :) Lovely bit of reading on the subject there. Excited to give it a shot.

He describes drying the stars between coats - Would it be suitable to bung them in the dehydrator for this purpose? He states that for a high charcoal star, coats of no thicker than 1mm should be 'pasted' before drying.. I do not doubt his master of the technique but wow.. a 10mm star is going to take a while! Although, I'll be rolling over a 7mm core so only three sessions of drying.
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Re: Toro

Post by Tyvole »

A 1mm layer shouldn't take too long to dry. It's probably quicker and I would guess much more reliable than rolling a 3mm layer and trying to dry that thickness without it cracking or pinholing.
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Aardvark
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Re: Toro

Post by Aardvark »

I'm sure the end result will be worth it. My only concern is a 1mm difference takes a fair amount of comp and in turn, a fair amount of slurry.. surely that'd lead to a very VERY damp star. I suppose at 7mm, I can go for a more viscous slurry that'd build the layers faster.

I'll give it a go tomorrow :) Just need to figure out the exact make up of the slurry. I've seen ranges of 1:10 to 1:1 but I suppose that'll be a wait and see aspect. Also need to take into consideration the quantity of alcohol I need.. as well as what's needed for the slurry! We both need to reduce tension :roll:
Niall
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Re: Toro

Post by Niall »

Forgive me, you are not looking to refucr tension, you want surface tension. The alcohol is purely solvent and accelerated drying.
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Aardvark
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Re: Toro

Post by Aardvark »

I thought there was a need to reduce tension to allow the slurry to mix evenly? If not I really am stumped :shock: I need to get out of the shed and do a little more reading.
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richardh08
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Re: Toro

Post by richardh08 »

3 observations:

1. Adding alcohol to water reduces the surface tension, relative to pure water.
2. A mix of alcohol and water dries faster than water alone.
3. A water/alcohol mix makes it easier to roll less lumpy stars from charcoal-rich compositions.

Speaking personally, I can't say whether any of these three are causally related. Some people say that 1 is the reason for 3 and it sounds plausible to me, but that's not the same as proof.
Even when I'm wrong, I'm convincing.
Niall
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Re: Toro

Post by Niall »

Following on from Richard, this is why 50:50 is used in early stages to lower the surface tension to stop cores sticking to each other. Which is why 75:25 is then used beyond a certain weight to increase the surface tension in order to pick up materiel. It also bonds with the water in a way that lifts water away during evaporation.

Don't know about the charcoal though. As above.
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coalman
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Re: Toro

Post by coalman »

Talking about alcohol, is there a (cheap) form of alcohol that is less choking than the meths I've been using? It's really overwhelming in an enclosed space.
Tyvole
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Re: Toro

Post by Tyvole »

The obvious answer is, of course, that you shouldn't be using it in an enclosed space!
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Aardvark
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Re: Toro

Post by Aardvark »

coalman wrote:Talking about alcohol, is there a (cheap) form of alcohol that is less choking than the meths I've been using? It's really overwhelming in an enclosed space.
Get yourself a mask rated for paint fumes bud. That'll deal with inhalation but as Tyvole says, if it's that noticeable - get yourself outside! I've had an experience of an alcohol fume ignition from static when treating a mid power rocket... Never again.
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Re: Toro

Post by coalman »

Hmm. It's small quantities but this stuff is really foul. Maybe I should try another brand. I do the actually drying in the greenhouse but even taking the top off the bottle is enough to stink up the room. The mask is a thought. Or maybe I'm becoming a sensitive flower.
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Re: Toro

Post by Niall »

Yeah, I use a candle! I sniff the air and ask myself if it would be dangerous to light it!!

If I can smell fumes, the answer is yes. At which point I ventilate the room and move outdoors! The candle is rather extravagant, I could probably skip that step.

Noted.

Believe it or not, small quantities of vapour carry a more pronounced threat, as they can have enough oxygen funding to ignite. That does not make large quantities safer, but the smaller the amount, the more surprising the risk.
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Aardvark
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Re: Toro

Post by Aardvark »

Niall wrote:Believe it or not, small quantities of vapour carry a more pronounced threat, as they can have enough oxygen funding to ignite. That does not make large quantities safer, but the smaller the amount, the more surprising the risk.
Hadn't thought of it that way, interesting and worrying!
coalman
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Re: Toro

Post by coalman »

Yikes! :ugeek:
Niall
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Re: Toro

Post by Niall »

In reality, just use your head, consider whether you would be doing the same things with petrol in a room, is there a difference?

Back to quantity, the incident in London a few years ago was saved by saturation, stupid people trying to do stupid things. I'll leave you to research that.

If you have lots of oxygen and a little fuel you may approach a stoichiometric balance, bad times. For example, natural gas is around 11:1 air to gas, which makes a better bang than a saturated room.

Take care to know the risks.
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Tyvole
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Re: Toro

Post by Tyvole »

And I'll say it again - the fumes are heavier than air, so they will spread at floor level without you even noticing. Take it outside, you really don't want to be pushing boundaries where safety is concerned. Think about how you would explain an explosion to the police...
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Niall
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Re: Toro

Post by Niall »

Exactly, and where the two meet is where the danger is.
All wretch and no vomit.......
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Aardvark
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Re: Toro

Post by Aardvark »

Are there any ways we can minimise the build-up? Lets face it, weather in the UK doesn't allow for much manufacture outdoors! Perhaps an extractor fan at floor level? But then.. that'd mean introducing electronics... Please stop raining :(
Niall
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Re: Toro

Post by Niall »

I think common sense and no sparks is a good way to go, reduce the risk, keep ventilated and be prepared for the worst. Keep your compositions flame proofed as the worst case might be a 'pop', but just be sensible. Always have an eye on the risk and a response option.
All wretch and no vomit.......
Tyvole
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Re: Toro

Post by Tyvole »

Realistically, the best that most in the UK (or CZ) can achieve is a shed or garage with the door open. Just not indoors!
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Niall
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Re: Toro

Post by Niall »

I found a gazebo on eBay for £7.00!

On its way!
All wretch and no vomit.......
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Aardvark
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Re: Toro

Post by Aardvark »

Lucky bugger!
Niall
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Re: Toro

Post by Niall »

http://bit.ly/1lcP6TI

Hope this helps.
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Pyro-Gear
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Re: Toro

Post by Pyro-Gear »

:lol: nice window
Niall
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Re: Toro

Post by Niall »

It's real, don't mock the beading.

It's for a charcoal oven and beer, whilst basking in the glow.
All wretch and no vomit.......
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Aardvark
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Re: Toro

Post by Aardvark »

Heaven :D
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Pyro-Gear
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Re: Toro

Post by Pyro-Gear »

It’s a window!
Tyvole
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Re: Toro

Post by Tyvole »

Niall wrote:It's for a charcoal oven and beer, whilst basking in the glow.
You're missing a trick Niall... With the charcoal oven at one end and a crate of cold beer at the other, you could set up a Stirling engine to run the charcoal ball mill! :-)
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Niall
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Re: Toro

Post by Niall »

Sir, yes, it is a window. Nothing more.

Slowly slowly, catchee monkey!

Might splash out on a door next.
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Pyro-Gear
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Re: Toro

Post by Pyro-Gear »

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: should be good in a storm only you and the window would vanish along with the red shoes.
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