Toro
Moderators: richardh08, Boophoenix, Lloyd
Toro
Evening chaps,
After using the usual spray/dust method for rolling TT's, I'm not satisfied with the finished result. It seems my method was slightly off, along with the general issues related to rolling charcoal stars.
Arran has kindly recommended the Toro method of rolling and it seems like that'd suit charcoal based compositions quite well. Then there's the hitch! I believe the method is explained in a few books but I'm struggling to find any information online.
Have any of you guys used the method before? Any advice is very welcome.
Thanks folks,
Sam.
After using the usual spray/dust method for rolling TT's, I'm not satisfied with the finished result. It seems my method was slightly off, along with the general issues related to rolling charcoal stars.
Arran has kindly recommended the Toro method of rolling and it seems like that'd suit charcoal based compositions quite well. Then there's the hitch! I believe the method is explained in a few books but I'm struggling to find any information online.
Have any of you guys used the method before? Any advice is very welcome.
Thanks folks,
Sam.
Re: Toro
Gooooood stuff! Thanks mate Lovely bit of reading on the subject there. Excited to give it a shot.
He describes drying the stars between coats - Would it be suitable to bung them in the dehydrator for this purpose? He states that for a high charcoal star, coats of no thicker than 1mm should be 'pasted' before drying.. I do not doubt his master of the technique but wow.. a 10mm star is going to take a while! Although, I'll be rolling over a 7mm core so only three sessions of drying.
He describes drying the stars between coats - Would it be suitable to bung them in the dehydrator for this purpose? He states that for a high charcoal star, coats of no thicker than 1mm should be 'pasted' before drying.. I do not doubt his master of the technique but wow.. a 10mm star is going to take a while! Although, I'll be rolling over a 7mm core so only three sessions of drying.
Re: Toro
A 1mm layer shouldn't take too long to dry. It's probably quicker and I would guess much more reliable than rolling a 3mm layer and trying to dry that thickness without it cracking or pinholing.
"If you don't learn anything, what's the point?"
Re: Toro
I'm sure the end result will be worth it. My only concern is a 1mm difference takes a fair amount of comp and in turn, a fair amount of slurry.. surely that'd lead to a very VERY damp star. I suppose at 7mm, I can go for a more viscous slurry that'd build the layers faster.
I'll give it a go tomorrow Just need to figure out the exact make up of the slurry. I've seen ranges of 1:10 to 1:1 but I suppose that'll be a wait and see aspect. Also need to take into consideration the quantity of alcohol I need.. as well as what's needed for the slurry! We both need to reduce tension
I'll give it a go tomorrow Just need to figure out the exact make up of the slurry. I've seen ranges of 1:10 to 1:1 but I suppose that'll be a wait and see aspect. Also need to take into consideration the quantity of alcohol I need.. as well as what's needed for the slurry! We both need to reduce tension
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Re: Toro
3 observations:
1. Adding alcohol to water reduces the surface tension, relative to pure water.
2. A mix of alcohol and water dries faster than water alone.
3. A water/alcohol mix makes it easier to roll less lumpy stars from charcoal-rich compositions.
Speaking personally, I can't say whether any of these three are causally related. Some people say that 1 is the reason for 3 and it sounds plausible to me, but that's not the same as proof.
1. Adding alcohol to water reduces the surface tension, relative to pure water.
2. A mix of alcohol and water dries faster than water alone.
3. A water/alcohol mix makes it easier to roll less lumpy stars from charcoal-rich compositions.
Speaking personally, I can't say whether any of these three are causally related. Some people say that 1 is the reason for 3 and it sounds plausible to me, but that's not the same as proof.
Even when I'm wrong, I'm convincing.
Re: Toro
Following on from Richard, this is why 50:50 is used in early stages to lower the surface tension to stop cores sticking to each other. Which is why 75:25 is then used beyond a certain weight to increase the surface tension in order to pick up materiel. It also bonds with the water in a way that lifts water away during evaporation.
Don't know about the charcoal though. As above.
Don't know about the charcoal though. As above.
All wretch and no vomit.......
Re: Toro
Get yourself a mask rated for paint fumes bud. That'll deal with inhalation but as Tyvole says, if it's that noticeable - get yourself outside! I've had an experience of an alcohol fume ignition from static when treating a mid power rocket... Never again.coalman wrote:Talking about alcohol, is there a (cheap) form of alcohol that is less choking than the meths I've been using? It's really overwhelming in an enclosed space.
Re: Toro
Hmm. It's small quantities but this stuff is really foul. Maybe I should try another brand. I do the actually drying in the greenhouse but even taking the top off the bottle is enough to stink up the room. The mask is a thought. Or maybe I'm becoming a sensitive flower.
Re: Toro
Yeah, I use a candle! I sniff the air and ask myself if it would be dangerous to light it!!
If I can smell fumes, the answer is yes. At which point I ventilate the room and move outdoors! The candle is rather extravagant, I could probably skip that step.
Noted.
Believe it or not, small quantities of vapour carry a more pronounced threat, as they can have enough oxygen funding to ignite. That does not make large quantities safer, but the smaller the amount, the more surprising the risk.
If I can smell fumes, the answer is yes. At which point I ventilate the room and move outdoors! The candle is rather extravagant, I could probably skip that step.
Noted.
Believe it or not, small quantities of vapour carry a more pronounced threat, as they can have enough oxygen funding to ignite. That does not make large quantities safer, but the smaller the amount, the more surprising the risk.
All wretch and no vomit.......
Re: Toro
Hadn't thought of it that way, interesting and worrying!Niall wrote:Believe it or not, small quantities of vapour carry a more pronounced threat, as they can have enough oxygen funding to ignite. That does not make large quantities safer, but the smaller the amount, the more surprising the risk.
Re: Toro
In reality, just use your head, consider whether you would be doing the same things with petrol in a room, is there a difference?
Back to quantity, the incident in London a few years ago was saved by saturation, stupid people trying to do stupid things. I'll leave you to research that.
If you have lots of oxygen and a little fuel you may approach a stoichiometric balance, bad times. For example, natural gas is around 11:1 air to gas, which makes a better bang than a saturated room.
Take care to know the risks.
Back to quantity, the incident in London a few years ago was saved by saturation, stupid people trying to do stupid things. I'll leave you to research that.
If you have lots of oxygen and a little fuel you may approach a stoichiometric balance, bad times. For example, natural gas is around 11:1 air to gas, which makes a better bang than a saturated room.
Take care to know the risks.
All wretch and no vomit.......
Re: Toro
And I'll say it again - the fumes are heavier than air, so they will spread at floor level without you even noticing. Take it outside, you really don't want to be pushing boundaries where safety is concerned. Think about how you would explain an explosion to the police...
"If you don't learn anything, what's the point?"
Re: Toro
Are there any ways we can minimise the build-up? Lets face it, weather in the UK doesn't allow for much manufacture outdoors! Perhaps an extractor fan at floor level? But then.. that'd mean introducing electronics... Please stop raining
Re: Toro
I think common sense and no sparks is a good way to go, reduce the risk, keep ventilated and be prepared for the worst. Keep your compositions flame proofed as the worst case might be a 'pop', but just be sensible. Always have an eye on the risk and a response option.
All wretch and no vomit.......
Re: Toro
You're missing a trick Niall... With the charcoal oven at one end and a crate of cold beer at the other, you could set up a Stirling engine to run the charcoal ball mill!Niall wrote:It's for a charcoal oven and beer, whilst basking in the glow.
"If you don't learn anything, what's the point?"