Adding Antimony Trisulfide for star tails?
Moderators: richardh08, Boophoenix, Lloyd
Adding Antimony Trisulfide for star tails?
Any experience guys? I'd like to add it to the green mix Ken has given me but am struggling to find any information regarding its use.
Is it just a case of the usual 'add 5-10%'? Or a complete re-jig of the comp
Cheers folks,
Sam.
Is it just a case of the usual 'add 5-10%'? Or a complete re-jig of the comp
Cheers folks,
Sam.
- richardh08
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Re: Adding Antimony Trisulfide for star tails?
I haven't come across that use for Sb2S3. My guess is that it would tend to whiten the colour without adding a tail.
If it were me, I'd consider adding a few percent of medium fine charcoal, sieved to remove any fine dust, or a bit of Al flitter if you want a brighter tail.
If it were me, I'd consider adding a few percent of medium fine charcoal, sieved to remove any fine dust, or a bit of Al flitter if you want a brighter tail.
Even when I'm wrong, I'm convincing.
Re: Adding Antimony Trisulfide for star tails?
May try a bit of charcoal then - Don't have any made up so will have to crack out the TLUD again! As for 'medium fine', would you suggest that's about as fine as breaking the lumps up by hand?
Cheers bud,
Sam.
Cheers bud,
Sam.
Re: Adding Antimony Trisulfide for star tails?
Charcoal or titanium or both. Aluminium flitters give an interesting tail, but avoid water and nitrates, you may have to add boric acid. As Richard points out, charcoal is a good tail.
Generally in shells the tail gives some added effect to bulk out the voids, especially in smaller shells. Black powder with some added metals will give a nice prime and tail effect to the star, antimony can be used in this way, but never let your metals reach 10% of the comp of BP.
Generally in shells the tail gives some added effect to bulk out the voids, especially in smaller shells. Black powder with some added metals will give a nice prime and tail effect to the star, antimony can be used in this way, but never let your metals reach 10% of the comp of BP.
All wretch and no vomit.......
- richardh08
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Re: Adding Antimony Trisulfide for star tails?
Ah yes, Niall, I'd forgotten that the green probably contains Ba nitrate. Aluminium, a nitrate and water can be unstable, especially if the mix is even the slightest bit alkaline. Such mixtures can evolve hydrogen and/or ammonia - and in the worst case can spontaneously ignite.
I'd guess that something like 60 to 80 mesh charcoal would be a suitable starting point, and go finer if the tail isn't dense enough. Try to avoid the really fine dust.
I'd guess that something like 60 to 80 mesh charcoal would be a suitable starting point, and go finer if the tail isn't dense enough. Try to avoid the really fine dust.
Even when I'm wrong, I'm convincing.
Re: Adding Antimony Trisulfide for star tails?
If the mix is using the carbonate formula, aluminium flitters would be interesting to add, if you have them. If you don't have flitters but do get some, be very careful to store them dry. They can react in air and runaway even on their own. They produce a lightly erratic delayed burn resembling fireflies! They would be interesting to see as a tail. I would encourage an additional 1% boric acid if this was experimented, purely as a backstop.
All wretch and no vomit.......
Re: Adding Antimony Trisulfide for star tails?
As it's not a BP based star I'm hoping to roll (want to add a tail to the green stage of my green to blue changing 12mm stars used in that 42 shell), would adding say.. 7% Antimony result in a tail, or just become another fuel used in the reaction?Niall wrote:antimony can be used in this way, but never let your metals reach 10% of the comp of BP
Cheers folks,
Sam.
Re: Adding Antimony Trisulfide for star tails?
Just a fuel. I see what you are after now. I recommend 5% titanium.
All wretch and no vomit.......
Re: Adding Antimony Trisulfide for star tails?
Unfortunately the only Titanium I have is FeTi and is quite coarse (60#), so I'm not sure if it'd take too well to rolling. Would Ti sponge at 60-140# suffice?
Thanks mate.
Thanks mate.
Re: Adding Antimony Trisulfide for star tails?
Well that solves that Thanks bud.
Re: Adding Antimony Trisulfide for star tails?
The FeTi would be fine too, but the range of the Ti meshes might be better for a tail.
Mix in very well to scatter the titanium. Stir well each time before rolling.
Mix in very well to scatter the titanium. Stir well each time before rolling.
All wretch and no vomit.......
Re: Adding Antimony Trisulfide for star tails?
I see. The FeTi just seems so bloody heavy that I can't see it being picked up... although, by the time I'm rolling comp containing it, the stars will be 8mm... hmmmmm!
Re: Adding Antimony Trisulfide for star tails?
Worry not! Just let the roller do the work, leave the comp to roll for longer, seriously much longer, the metal will pick up. You'll see a speckled surface start to form and the stars will sound very hard.
All wretch and no vomit.......
Re: Adding Antimony Trisulfide for star tails?
Cupric oxide 44
MG/AL 44
antimony trisulphide 7
titanium 5
bind with NC cut in to 5x5 mm cubes, before there fully dry run them in the roller just to take the edge off, allow to dry fully, next roll your colour composition over the cores to around 10mm, the effect is stunning almost mesmerising.
MG/AL 44
antimony trisulphide 7
titanium 5
bind with NC cut in to 5x5 mm cubes, before there fully dry run them in the roller just to take the edge off, allow to dry fully, next roll your colour composition over the cores to around 10mm, the effect is stunning almost mesmerising.
Re: Adding Antimony Trisulfide for star tails?
Not with the Ferro he has have far too big.Niall wrote:Worry not! Just let the roller do the work, leave the comp to roll for longer, seriously much longer, the metal will pick up. You'll see a speckled surface start to form and the stars will sound very hard.
Re: Adding Antimony Trisulfide for star tails?
Ooooo, that sounds like a really nice one. Would that roll onto a red core? If so, would a relay be needed between the red core and the layer over that comp?Pyro-Gear wrote:Cupric oxide 44
MG/AL 44
antimony trisulphide 7
titanium 5
bind with NC cut in to 5x5 mm cubes, before there fully dry run them in the roller just to take the edge off, allow to dry fully, next roll your colour composition over the cores to around 10mm, the effect is stunning almost mesmerising.
Cheers Ken! Look forward to giving that one a try too. Would the FeTi 60# I have be adequate in that comp?
Sam.
Re: Adding Antimony Trisulfide for star tails?
You roll around the core any colour I have given you will work fine 60# a little course but should be fine, no relay needed, I demonstrated this effect to OB two years ago his words were bloody stunning.
Basically the star burns out leaving a trail of glitter that moves around and flashes my grandchildren call them dancing fairy’s the effect is stunning if made correctly.
Basically the star burns out leaving a trail of glitter that moves around and flashes my grandchildren call them dancing fairy’s the effect is stunning if made correctly.
Re: Adding Antimony Trisulfide for star tails?
Good stuff! May have a go at that tomorrow and knock up another 4" in a few days. New projects Cheers mate.
Re: Adding Antimony Trisulfide for star tails?
http://youtu.be/OQXQm--AnyQ
The stars in this bad boy picked up the larger metals, the key was to leave the stars rolling longer between adding comp etc. I used some of the same Ti sponge. They sounded like marbles!!
It was a mix I kicked together to try and make some use of a hardwood based BP.
Will have to try and make this comp again!
The stars in this bad boy picked up the larger metals, the key was to leave the stars rolling longer between adding comp etc. I used some of the same Ti sponge. They sounded like marbles!!
It was a mix I kicked together to try and make some use of a hardwood based BP.
Will have to try and make this comp again!
All wretch and no vomit.......
Re: Adding Antimony Trisulfide for star tails?
Pyro-Gear wrote:You roll around the core any colour I have given you will work fine 60# a little course but should be fine, no relay needed, I demonstrated this effect to OB two years ago his words were bloody stunning.
Basically the star burns out leaving a trail of glitter that moves around and flashes my grandchildren call them dancing fairy’s the effect is stunning if made correctly.
I grabbed some of these off you, they really fill the sky and have a stunning effect. Mesmerising is the exact word.
All wretch and no vomit.......
Re: Adding Antimony Trisulfide for star tails?
Ooooooooooo!!!! Tomorrow it is They look fantastic.
That comp wouldn't do the same if actually rolled?
That comp wouldn't do the same if actually rolled?
Re: Adding Antimony Trisulfide for star tails?
Scratch that - NC required so no I suppose not!
Re: Adding Antimony Trisulfide for star tails?
You won’t roll that do as I said make the core by hand then roll around that, another trick is to pump a cavity star then add the mix but I digress.
Re: Adding Antimony Trisulfide for star tails?
Once the stars are cut, perhaps a dusting with the next comp would stop them sticking too much in the roller?
All wretch and no vomit.......
Re: Adding Antimony Trisulfide for star tails?
Nitro cellulose prills is what you want/ or a model shop get some cellulose dope or ping pong balls dissolved in acetone Argos! Work fineAardvark wrote:Scratch that - NC required so no I suppose not!
Re: Adding Antimony Trisulfide for star tails?
I'll have a little look around. If I were to go down the 'ping pong' route (really?! ha), what ratio ping pong balls... Oh come on TO Acetone! would you suggest?
Ha....
Ha....
Re: Adding Antimony Trisulfide for star tails?
Yes absolutely, as soon as they form a crust then chuck them in the roller the plan is to get them as close to round as possible.Niall wrote:Once the stars are cut, perhaps a dusting with the next comp would stop them sticking too much in the roller?
Re: Adding Antimony Trisulfide for star tails?
Cut up around five balls and dissolve in acetone.Aardvark wrote:I'll have a little look around. If I were to go down the 'ping pong' route (really?! ha), what ratio ping pong balls... Oh come on TO Acetone! would you suggest?
Ha....
ping pong balls are a form of nitro cellulose with some camphor but work very well in fact in some cases work better. Try to get it to a thickest paste as you can.
Re: Adding Antimony Trisulfide for star tails?
Thanks bud, I'll have a go at that. I've seen Alex's NC prills so will order some of those at some point too.
Can you suggest a nice glitter star using the Antimony? I really am clueless when it comes to the names of comps so don't really know what I'm looking for. I like the effect of a star that leaves a glitter trail then end in a short glow of colour. I suppose a glitter comp layered onto your blue comp as a core?
Can you suggest a nice glitter star using the Antimony? I really am clueless when it comes to the names of comps so don't really know what I'm looking for. I like the effect of a star that leaves a glitter trail then end in a short glow of colour. I suppose a glitter comp layered onto your blue comp as a core?
Re: Adding Antimony Trisulfide for star tails?
Lancaster (you know I love his work)
BP meal 64
Antimony 12
Barium carbonate 12
Aluminium flake 250-300 mesh 5
Aluminium flitter 30-80 mesh 2
Dextrin 5
BP meal 64
Antimony 12
Barium carbonate 12
Aluminium flake 250-300 mesh 5
Aluminium flitter 30-80 mesh 2
Dextrin 5
Re: Adding Antimony Trisulfide for star tails?
Any idea where I could get hold of some flitter? Alex has a nice range of flake but no flitter.
With regards to the bp meal, should that be the fast stuff? Or some slower pine meal?
Cheers bud, comp looks pretty nice,
Sam.
With regards to the bp meal, should that be the fast stuff? Or some slower pine meal?
Cheers bud, comp looks pretty nice,
Sam.
Re: Adding Antimony Trisulfide for star tails?
You have flitter in the kitchen aluminium pie tray cut it up, meal powder average.
Re: Adding Antimony Trisulfide for star tails?
Ahhh I see! That'll be a fun one to have a play with then.
Re: Adding Antimony Trisulfide for star tails?
I wonder... Would adding flitter to your blue comp lead to a thin but light tail?
- richardh08
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Re: Adding Antimony Trisulfide for star tails?
With all respect to PG, I'm not convinced that cutting up an aluminium pie tray will give you what you need - I haven't tried it but I feel it will be just too coarse to be really effective in a glitter formula. Kitchen foil is thinner but, in my opinion, still probably too thick.
The coarser flakes seem to be harder to source than I would have expected.
You could try milling your own. I know a certain American writer and designer of ball mills says that you can't mill metals but I'm not convinced, especially if you are not looking for micron-sized particles. I've tried in the (fairly distant) past, using stainless steel ball bearings as the milling medium and got to pretty fine (about 100 mesh) flakes in a reasonable time. I'll have to look up my notes to be more precise.
I started with kitchen foil, shredded in a cross-cut paper shredder and added about 4% stearin (candle wax will do) to help prevent the flakes from welding together. Here are some photos to give you an idea of what you get.
The coarser flakes seem to be harder to source than I would have expected.
You could try milling your own. I know a certain American writer and designer of ball mills says that you can't mill metals but I'm not convinced, especially if you are not looking for micron-sized particles. I've tried in the (fairly distant) past, using stainless steel ball bearings as the milling medium and got to pretty fine (about 100 mesh) flakes in a reasonable time. I'll have to look up my notes to be more precise.
I started with kitchen foil, shredded in a cross-cut paper shredder and added about 4% stearin (candle wax will do) to help prevent the flakes from welding together. Here are some photos to give you an idea of what you get.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Even when I'm wrong, I'm convincing.
Re: Adding Antimony Trisulfide for star tails?
It's bloody hard work but I'm getting somewhere! Will post a picture of the progress.
Re: Adding Antimony Trisulfide for star tails?
I did some with foil in a liquidizer about two years ago and it worked ok it needed about 1 1/2 hours.
Re: Adding Antimony Trisulfide for star tails?
The really cheap and nasty foil is your best starting point, much of the work has been done insofar as it is thinner than an alcoholic gnat's piss.
All wretch and no vomit.......
Re: Adding Antimony Trisulfide for star tails?
Al flitter here : http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/200g-Aluminiu ... 2a36554965
The guy has crap tools but his other supplies are OK
The guy has crap tools but his other supplies are OK
Re: Adding Antimony Trisulfide for star tails?
Cheers bud. His tools are pretty funny to be honest... when you see the standard of tools PG and OB supply in comparison... ha.
My current status as far as this star goes is:
Red micro stars (about 3mm)
Relay up to about 4mm
Blue up to 8mm
Glitter comp made and ready to go!... once I figure out that little Nitrate/Al issue
Sam.
Ken, as this has a fairly high nitrate content, will that 7% Al be an issue when rolling with 25:75 alcohol:water?Pyro-Gear wrote:Lancaster (you know I love his work)
BP meal 64
Antimony 12
Barium carbonate 12
Aluminium flake 250-300 mesh 5
Aluminium flitter 30-80 mesh 2
Dextrin 5
My current status as far as this star goes is:
Red micro stars (about 3mm)
Relay up to about 4mm
Blue up to 8mm
Glitter comp made and ready to go!... once I figure out that little Nitrate/Al issue
Sam.
Re: Adding Antimony Trisulfide for star tails?
Another little query; is that glitter comp safe to roll over your perchlorate based relay? Getting a touch confused regarding unsafe chemicals to mix!
Re: Adding Antimony Trisulfide for star tails?
I can't see a problem with compatibility, the carbonate in the formula should be fine to keep the acidity of the comp high.
Roll away.
Roll away.
All wretch and no vomit.......
Re: Adding Antimony Trisulfide for star tails?
Spot on top modNiall wrote:I can't see a problem with compatibility, the carbonate in the formula should be fine to keep the acidity of the comp high.
Roll away.
Re: Adding Antimony Trisulfide for star tails?
Red-Relay-Blue-Relay......... Glitter?!
All rolled beautifully, like bearings.. up until the glitter. My lord that stuff didn't want to roll properly. 3 hours later and I have some pretty horrible stars What a waste of time/resources. Not sure where it went wrong.
All rolled beautifully, like bearings.. up until the glitter. My lord that stuff didn't want to roll properly. 3 hours later and I have some pretty horrible stars What a waste of time/resources. Not sure where it went wrong.
- richardh08
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Re: Adding Antimony Trisulfide for star tails?
Quote:
the carbonate in the formula should be fine to keep the acidity of the comp high
Err... my chemistry tells me that carbonates react with acids and so tend to remove any acid that may be present.
At best this mix will be neutral, and may be slightly alkaline from the charcoal. There's little point adding boric acid as it will just get neutralised by the carbonate.
Having said that, I'm sure this mix will be fine to roll (or pump) as it won't ever get really wet and, once rolled, will dry out fairly quickly. This kind of composition would normally only tend to cause problems if left very wet for a reasonably long period of time or get too hot while drying. I would worry if it contained finer (eg pyro grade) Al, and in any case I would think twice before wetting it enough to make cut stars with it.
It is similar in terms of ingredients to several of Winokur's glitter formulae and they all use a few percent of water to activate the binder. I've never heard of them causing problems.
In terms of compatibility, it is fine to roll it over a perchlorate-based mix.
It's good to ask, and it pays to worry about things that are unlikely to happen, especially when chemistry is involved.
the carbonate in the formula should be fine to keep the acidity of the comp high
Err... my chemistry tells me that carbonates react with acids and so tend to remove any acid that may be present.
At best this mix will be neutral, and may be slightly alkaline from the charcoal. There's little point adding boric acid as it will just get neutralised by the carbonate.
Having said that, I'm sure this mix will be fine to roll (or pump) as it won't ever get really wet and, once rolled, will dry out fairly quickly. This kind of composition would normally only tend to cause problems if left very wet for a reasonably long period of time or get too hot while drying. I would worry if it contained finer (eg pyro grade) Al, and in any case I would think twice before wetting it enough to make cut stars with it.
It is similar in terms of ingredients to several of Winokur's glitter formulae and they all use a few percent of water to activate the binder. I've never heard of them causing problems.
In terms of compatibility, it is fine to roll it over a perchlorate-based mix.
It's good to ask, and it pays to worry about things that are unlikely to happen, especially when chemistry is involved.
Even when I'm wrong, I'm convincing.
Re: Adding Antimony Trisulfide for star tails?
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You could try milling your own. I know a certain American writer and designer of ball mills says that you can't mill metals but I'm not convinced, especially if you are not looking for micron-sized particles. I've tried in the (fairly distant) past, using stainless steel ball bearings as the milling medium and got to pretty fine (about 100 mesh) flakes in a reasonable time. I'll have to look up my notes to be more precise.
I run 15mm X 20mm brass media in my mill it will reduce foil down to a fine powder in a few hours, I actually use this media to reduce the MG/AL ungraded from OB, of course the risk of an exothermic reaction is possible so best not fall asleep, just vent the jar every hour, but I expect you know that any way just a little heads up for the new guys. PG
You could try milling your own. I know a certain American writer and designer of ball mills says that you can't mill metals but I'm not convinced, especially if you are not looking for micron-sized particles. I've tried in the (fairly distant) past, using stainless steel ball bearings as the milling medium and got to pretty fine (about 100 mesh) flakes in a reasonable time. I'll have to look up my notes to be more precise.
I run 15mm X 20mm brass media in my mill it will reduce foil down to a fine powder in a few hours, I actually use this media to reduce the MG/AL ungraded from OB, of course the risk of an exothermic reaction is possible so best not fall asleep, just vent the jar every hour, but I expect you know that any way just a little heads up for the new guys. PG
- richardh08
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Re: Adding Antimony Trisulfide for star tails?
Oh dear! I'm assuming they have become very uneven, if not actually spiky. BP-based mixes, and others that contain high-ish percentages of charcoal are notoriously difficult to roll.3 hours later and I have some pretty horrible stars What a waste of time/resources. Not sure where it went wrong
If you were hand-rolling I would recommend going against the advice in my previous post and say wet them some more, possibly with a higher percentage of alcohol, and keep rolling, without adding more powder, until they became more even.
I'm not sufficiently experienced with rolling machines to offer any sensible advice about how to prevent this from happening or to fix it once it has.
Even when I'm wrong, I'm convincing.