An introduction to PVB.

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Pyro-Gear
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Re: An introduction to PVB.

Post by Pyro-Gear »

sambo wrote:Lloyd, thanks again for your help, you have gone out of your way. It is appreciated very much is all I can say. The addition of a plasticiser is certainly relevant, regardless of extruding, as when pressing stars with some metals sometimes it becomes very messy and quite awkward. In that sense PVB may not be the most ideal binder for all pressing purposes. I disagree with Ken that it will replace all other binders.

In the interests of keeping this on-topic i won't clutter this thread any further with my plans. I will say I welcome constructive feedback, negative and positive, and open discussion but i do not welcome unnecessarily critical, dismissive and supercilious comments; and I'm afraid Ken that is put to you.

Thanks again.
Sam you have the ability to create a new topic do it.

Straying pisses me off, what next the topic could move over to what washing liquid you use it happens;
Sorry I have offended you I apologise.
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Re: An introduction to PVB.

Post by Lloyd »

But, Ken, "thread wander" is just what happens in fora like this.

One way is just to move the "offending" part of the discussion to a new thread, and post a notice to that effect.

It's a sorry commentary on our "attention span" that we cannot avoid that... but we can't! <G>

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Re: An introduction to PVB.

Post by Pyro-Gear »

As the British say shit happens Lloyd, I am one person in ill health I can’t do everything but I can make changes.
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Re: An introduction to PVB.

Post by Lloyd »

That's all any of us can do, Ken. I'm OLD, too! <G>

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Re: An introduction to PVB.

Post by Pyro-Gear »

;)
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Re: An introduction to PVB.

Post by sambo »

Crikey. I wasn't yet offended at the time of that posting, but the reply was crass.

people do and say stuff to me that sounds ridiculous all the time - it's common when you have a high level of expertise, I acknowledge sometimes they will be right and tolerating them is better for my blood pressure. You have a high level of expertise Ken, you are therefore looked up to in that sense, certainly you are by me, and your comments carry greater weight for that reason, it's that simple.

Bygones are bygones in my book, I really can't be getting "pissed off" myself. This is supposed to be for fun - where did all the fun go ? Can we have the fun back now please.

Sam.
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Re: An introduction to PVB.

Post by Lloyd »

Sam, you'll be fine, because this is FIREWORKS! (and so will Ken <G>)

It's all fun, even if you do it for a living!

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Re: An introduction to PVB.

Post by sambo »

yeah, I have royally f'kd this thread though, sorry.
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Re: An introduction to PVB.

Post by Tyvole »

@sambo
No, no you haven't. No worries until I start editing posts... apparently, that seems to do the trick. :-(
Ken will know what I mean...
The willingness to innovate and just try something (even if it seems a bit off-the-wall at first) and then talk about it openly is a big part of what makes this forum special.
Anyway, you guys have been formulating and testing like mad, now posting like it's going out of style! Grab yourselves a cold one, settle back, it'll all be better in the morning.
Btw, that was me trying to be all moderating and stuff, not condescending or patronising or... Should I stop digging this hole now? ;-)
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Re: An introduction to PVB.

Post by Lloyd »

Also, from my chems guy:
"The SS grades of nitrocellulose (10.8 to 11.2% nitrogen) are generally used with PVB and the typical solvent used is 80% n-propanol 20% n-propyl acetate. PVB is solvent retentive and nitrocellulose is used to improve solvent release. You need to look into working with solvent blends to achieve solubility of the blend of resins in your formulation that you want to dissolve but that don't dissolve the resins you don't want to dissolve. "

So... the NC is IMPORTANT, lest the composition does not dry even for as much as weeks.

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Re: An introduction to PVB.

Post by Pyro-Gear »

Interesting this will need some further study:

Lloyd the majority of the NC we use is in the form of flake or Prill’s that we dissolve in Acetone to form a lacquer, the NC is shipped water wetted with IPA but once dry it will detonate given a hefty blow that part I will leave to your imagination.

I am unsure of the the nitration levels of the product but if you hit one dry Prill it will go with a crack.
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Re: An introduction to PVB.

Post by SwedishParaCordNut »

I have now read all the 60 posts a couple of times, and all I get in my little head is that I became more confused the second time a read the posts. :/

I´m new to this with fireworks, and that makes it very hard for me to follow the discussion regarding how good PVB is and what I should use as a solvent. Is IPA still a good solvent for PVB, especially when it comes to rolling stars, or should I use something diffrent? And is PVB still a good binder, or have the discussion in this thread changed that?

Sorry for my lack of knowledge, as I said, I´m new to fireworks, and I´m no chemist. That´s why I ask this maybe stupid questions.
(sorry for my bad english, I´m from Sweden)
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Re: An introduction to PVB.

Post by Pyro-Gear »

SwedishParaCordNut: don’t worry we will get things back on track moderators are trying to clean it up a little:

IPA is all you need I am franticly trying to submit some composition and as soon as you get your PVB I will pass them over via PM.
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Re: An introduction to PVB.

Post by SwedishParaCordNut »

Pyro-Gear wrote:SwedishParaCordNut: don’t worry we will get things back on track moderators are trying it to clean it up a little:

IPA is all you need I am franticly trying to submit some composition and as soon as you get your PVB I will pass them over via PM.
Thanks for clarifying it to me PG, it all became a bit confusing to me.

That sounds really good! Can't wait to get the PVB and the compositions! :)
(sorry for my bad english, I´m from Sweden)
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Re: An introduction to PVB.

Post by richardh08 »

PVB has many interesting properties, but not all are directly relevant to pyrotechnics. To help clarify the situation, I’ll say what I and one or two others have found so far.

PVB dissolves in a wide range of solvents. In the vast majority of firework-related situations, 100% isopropyl alcohol works very well and is all you need to use.

It acts as a very good binder in a wide range of formulations to make cut, pumped or rolled stars. For pumped and cut stars, particularly if they contain reasonably large percentages of PVB, you need to take care about the amount of IPA you use – you need enough to activate the binder, but too much can result in a soft, sticky mess. With the right amount, pumped stars are easy to make and separate cleanly from the pump. In all cases I have tried, using PVB means that rolled stars become much easier to make, compared with other binders. To give you some idea, I took twenty-four 2mm cores and hand-rolled them to 8mm in a 400ml beaker. Normally, that would result in some rather oddly shaped bodies of varying sizes. Here’s the result:
IMG_2120d.jpg
It also is a good fuel and it looks as though it can largely replace a range of other fuels. Compositions made with PVB seem to ignite easily and be smooth-burning. I found that it disturbed the colour of one particular blue formulation, but Ken tells me that he has found an alternative that works well with PVB.

There is some evidence that it improves some strobe mixtures. It certainly seems to work in ones of the barium nitrate-sulphur type. An example I tried strobed very well and was exceptionally easy to ignite, compared with a similar mixture without the PVB.

Lloyd points out that adding NC can help release the solvent in cases where PVB would otherwise tend to retain it over relatively long periods of time. All I can say is that, with IPA as the solvent and modest percentages of PVB as binder/fuel, I haven’t yet found that to be a problem.
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Re: An introduction to PVB.

Post by Pyro-Gear »

I can’t imagine what the 2mm cores were; well we keep saying it PVB with IPA works fantastic, brilliant post Richard and dam you rolled them by hand! Well like I said PVB will make you an expert at rolling, oops back to the formulas.
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Re: An introduction to PVB.

Post by Pyro-Gear »

Just to add Richard I have a sort of nice blue strobe working I will pass on the details, but that Tick is sure fighting back.
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Re: An introduction to PVB.

Post by SwedishParaCordNut »

richardh08 wrote:PVB has many interesting properties, but not all are directly relevant to pyrotechnics. To help clarify the situation, I’ll say what I and one or two others have found so far.

PVB dissolves in a wide range of solvents. In the vast majority of firework-related situations, 100% isopropyl alcohol works very well and is all you need to use.

It acts as a very good binder in a wide range of formulations to make cut, pumped or rolled stars. For pumped and cut stars, particularly if they contain reasonably large percentages of PVB, you need to take care about the amount of IPA you use – you need enough to activate the binder, but too much can result in a soft, sticky mess. With the right amount, pumped stars are easy to make and separate cleanly from the pump. In all cases I have tried, using PVB means that rolled stars become much easier to make, compared with other binders. To give you some idea, I took twenty-four 2mm cores and hand-rolled them to 8mm in a 400ml beaker. Normally, that would result in some rather oddly shaped bodies of varying sizes. Here’s the result:
IMG_2120d.jpg
It also is a good fuel and it looks as though it can largely replace a range of other fuels. Compositions made with PVB seem to ignite easily and be smooth-burning. I found that it disturbed the colour of one particular blue formulation, but Ken tells me that he has found an alternative that works well with PVB.

There is some evidence that it improves some strobe mixtures. It certainly seems to work in ones of the barium nitrate-sulphur type. An example I tried strobed very well and was exceptionally easy to ignite, compared with a similar mixture without the PVB.

Lloyd points out that adding NC can help release the solvent in cases where PVB would otherwise tend to retain it over relatively long periods of time. All I can say is that, with IPA as the solvent and modest percentages of PVB as binder/fuel, I haven’t yet found that to be a problem.
Thank you very, very much for explaining it all in a very understandable way Richard! I appreciate it very much!

I have to admitt that it is going to be superfun to use PVB when I roll my stars. I have really gotten addicted to sit in front of P-G´s star roller, and I guess that I have rolled 7-8 kg of stars already since I bought it. :)

I´m really impressed how nice they turned out when you handrolled the ones on the picture. As I said, it´s going to be both very fun aswell as interesting to use the PVB. :)

Thanks again for the explanation Richard!
(sorry for my bad english, I´m from Sweden)
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Re: An introduction to PVB.

Post by SwedishParaCordNut »

Pyro-Gear wrote:Just to add Richard I have a sort of nice blue strobe working I will pass on the details, but that Tick is sure fighting back.
Sorry to hear that you are sick PG! I hope you´re feeling better soon!
(sorry for my bad english, I´m from Sweden)
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Re: An introduction to PVB.

Post by Pyro-Gear »

Its lime’s Alan starting to feel better now the treatment has kicked in although I have some slight difficulty with various things: all I did was get a shovel of charcoal out the bag and that jumping spider got me it hurt like hell but as a true pyro I got the head and bloody fangs out with a craft knife.
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Re: An introduction to PVB.

Post by SwedishParaCordNut »

Pyro-Gear wrote:Its lime’s Alan starting to feel better now the treatment has kicked in although I have some slight difficulty with various things: all I did was get a shovel of charcoal out the bag and that jumping spider got me it hurt like hell but as a true pyro I got the head and bloody fangs out with a craft knife.
That´s the way a true pyro does it! :)

No, to be serious, it seems for sure to be a nasty bug to get bitten by. My first cousin got it years back, and he was more or less paralysed in the left half of his body for about 3 months or so. He made a full recovery, but it was for sure very frightening!
(sorry for my bad english, I´m from Sweden)
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Re: An introduction to PVB.

Post by biffo »

Being able to lock in AP so that it can be nitrate primed would be another game changer ,please keep us posted "gear",regards biffo
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Re: An introduction to PVB.

Post by biffo »

Just made buttered popcorn( cut ) and win20 (cut)with 4per cent pvb in each,not dry yet ,I'll let you know.B
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Re: An introduction to PVB.

Post by biffo »

Both burn well in static tests ,good uniform burn rate and the win20 is spiting little flashes ,nice B
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Re: An introduction to PVB.

Post by Lloyd »

Biffo,

This is not so much for YOU as just for the discussion:

Buttered Popcorn will not glitter properly unless compacted as a comet or star. It doesn't look very glittery at all, when burnt as a powder.

I realize you made cut stars with it (which is perfect), but others might be tempted to test the comps 'loose', and that doesn't work well with glitters, in general.

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Re: An introduction to PVB.

Post by biffo »

I burnt the stars, I very rarely burn the powder,the buttered popcorn glittered very uniformly, I haven't seen them in the air yet but they look promising. Thanks Lloyd. B
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Re: An introduction to PVB.

Post by Boophoenix »

It appear Eastman's corporate office is in my back yard almost along with a manufacturing facility ( Lloyd next door to where you almost moved once ). The parent company of Butvar.

They seem to have 6 variations of PVB. Many quite similar with a couple of notable exceptions.
B76 and B79 the PVB changes to 88% from 80% of the rest.
Lloyd mentioned some numbers earlier is higher or lower better there?
What is better on the solution viscosity index higher or lower most are about the same but B72 goes way up at 170-260 cps what does this mean in comparison to the other ranging from 6 to 47 normally pretty close numbers not Varying more than 10 points and as little as 3 points?
The molecular weights vary a little too good, bad, no difference?

Basically would any of these properties make one better than another to try?
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Re: An introduction to PVB.

Post by Pyro-Gear »

When I first investigated PVB I approached a pyrotechnic manufacture for advice.


Polyvinyl butyral, 30H powdered PVB

Content: 99.5%

PVAL: 18.9%

Acetate content: 2.1%

Particle size: <250 .mu.m

Polyvinylbutyal, 60H powdered
PVB

Content: 99.4%

PVAL: 18.3%

Acetate content: 1.7%

Particle size: <200 .mu.m
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Re: An introduction to PVB.

Post by Boophoenix »

This is one option I'm seeing at Butval which this information is a hair above my pay grade and maybe a hole wig. Sounds like some realy interesting results have been happening and I was looking t aquire a little for testing purposes down the road. With Eastman in my back door seemed like a good choice if there products are comparable.

Typical Properties
Property Typical Value, Units
Hydroxyl Content a 11.5-13.5
Solution Viscosity 5% solids in SD-29 ethyl alcohol @ 25°C 18.0-28.0 cps
Volatile Content 5.0% max
Form White, free-flowing powder
Acetate Content b 2.5 maximum
Butyryl Content c 88 (approximate)
Molecular Weight d 90,000-120,000
Specific Gravity @ 23°/23°C 1.083
Glass Transition Temperature (Tg)
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Re: An introduction to PVB.

Post by richardh08 »

The problem I find with comparing PVBs from different manufacturers is that they all give their results in somewhat different terms, and that they quote ranges of values that are sufficiently broad that comparisons are difficult, if not impossible.

Ken's supplier (who only sells Mowital grades) says that 30H and 60H are the best for pyrotechnic use, but I don't know any of the reasoning behind that statement. In terms of their effect in crackle compositions, the vast majority of our trials were made with 60H. We've seen that 30H and a different brand of recycled PVB also work, but we haven't done an exhaustive comparison, so can't guarantee that they are wholly interchangeable.

So far, we have seen no evidence that the grade makes any difference when PVB is used as a fuel/binder in other types of composition.

Looking at the Mowital manufacturer's data, both 30H and 60H are quoted to have a PVOH (hydroxyl) content of 18-21% (by weight), which is higher than the one you give - provided you assume both manufacturers are measuring the same thing. The PVOAc (acetate) content for both is quoted as 1.0-4.0% - unhelpfully wide, but it does straddle your stated value.

The viscosities from the two manufacturers are given for different temperatures and concentrations. Applying some approximate corrections suggests that your sample most closely resembles the 30H; 60H has a viscosity that is some 5 or 6 times greater.

I hope that helps.
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Re: An introduction to PVB.

Post by Boophoenix »

Thank you very much Richard that did quite a bit. That info was just one of the six I grabbed out of the hat as it had the higher content of PVB. I'm interested in it for the binding and rolling aspects. I haven't graduated to crackle yet.
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Re: An introduction to PVB.

Post by Boophoenix »

The B-72 ups the viscosity

Typical Properties
Property Typical Value, Units
Hydroxyl Content a 17.5-20.0
Solution Viscosity 7.5% solids in anhydrous methanol @ 20°C 170-260 cps
Volatile Content 3.5% max
Form White, free-flowing powder
Acetate Content b 2.5 maximum
Butyryl Content c 80 (approximate)
Molecular Weight d 170,000-250,000
Specific Gravity @ 23°/23°C 1.100
Glass Transition Temperature (Tg)
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Re: An introduction to PVB.

Post by lutata »

Good Morning Guys, I'm an Italian fireworker and I'm just testing for first time some of my compositions with PVB binder and bioethanol. Do you think it's better to dissolve PVB in ethanol and then rolling stars or or just add PVB in composition and wetting in stars roller only with alcool?
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Re: An introduction to PVB.

Post by Pyro-Gear »

Hi and welcome.

To start just add the PVB to the composition around 2-3% then roll with alcohol, rolling with PVB is easier than rolling with other binders.
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Re: An introduction to PVB.

Post by lutata »

Thank you! I will post results as soon as possible!
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Re: An introduction to PVB.

Post by Pyro-Gear »

To save you a little time I have sent you all my working PVB formulations.
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Re: An introduction to PVB.

Post by lutata »

:D :D :D Wow! I'll start some test as soon as I'll prime some blue stars.
Hoping in sunny day!
Sorry for bad English...
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Re: An introduction to PVB.

Post by Boophoenix »

Welcome aboard Lutata.
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Re: An introduction to PVB.

Post by sambo »

Welcome from me too Lutata
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Re: An introduction to PVB.

Post by lutata »

Hi, guys! Thank you all for welcoming! Today first time with pvb in stars roller.
First impression is good, maybe is my fault but some mixture (red) stuck on stars roller.
I added phenolic resin too in composition instead of redgum.
3% pvb in composition dampened with bioethanol.
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Re: An introduction to PVB.

Post by Tom Schroeder »

Lutata,

If you are working on a commercial scale a solution of A type nitrocellulose in the bio ethanol with about 10% of ethyl acetate solvent used to dampen the mix should reduce the tendency to build up,on the drum. A supplier of flexographic ink to the sausage casing printing business would have such a "varnish" , it is called "nitro varnish for flexo ink" in the US.

Tom
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Re: An introduction to PVB.

Post by Pyro-Gear »

lutata wrote:Hi, guys! Thank you all for welcoming! Today first time with pvb in stars roller.
First impression is good, maybe is my fault but some mixture (red) stuck on stars roller.
I added phenolic resin too in composition instead of redgum.
3% pvb in composition dampened with bioethanol.

Forget the red gum or any other binder other than PVB, PVB will give you the fuel and binder in one! Stick to the recipes I told you about it will be fine, if you are using another composition that includes any other binder we will adjust it for you to suit your needs, regards Ken.
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Re: An introduction to PVB.

Post by lutata »

In Red composition, I add Phenolic Resin instead of Red Gum as fuel, so you suggest to replace the amount of Phenolic Resin with PVB?
Regards Giuseppe.
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Re: An introduction to PVB.

Post by Pyro-Gear »

Giuseppe when using PVB there in no need to use any phenolic resin or red gum.

So if we take Red it would be.
Potassium perchlorate 27
Strontium nitrate 27
Strontium carbonate 12
Magnalium 200-250 mesh 17
Parlon 14
PVB 3
And that’s it, I would advise that you make a small quantity and test the red, the red is very good I assure you plus you will gain more confidence in using PVB, as I said PVB is the fuel and binder all in one, just roll cut or pump with alcohol.
Ken.
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Re: An introduction to PVB.

Post by Boophoenix »

I've started the ball rolling to try to aquire enough to last me a little while. Now I have a question as I look at these. If my conversation goes well with Kuraray is the 60H the best. The higher viscosity of it makes me wonder, and Richard mentions above the 30H being good. My literature shows quite the difference in viscousity.

Richard, could you inquire why the 30H and 60H is better ? Would it be the higher polyvinyl alcohol they both contain? If this is the case would the possibility of some of the Poval line may serve better ( not seeing any technical data for comparison though ).

I plan some multiple useages if things go as planned so star rolling won't be the only use of it as a binder. The lower viscousity should serve the other ideas a little better maybe. Since I'd have to purchase a small drum it warrants a question.

I'm hoping enough research with the resources available here may make the acquisition a little easier. I'm not certain how they may react to my purchase if I share my extended useage.
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Re: An introduction to PVB.

Post by Lloyd »

Boo,
I have to ask, because I'm very interested in this:

Do you think it's the actual viscosity, or is it perhaps the tackiness of the material that will make the biggest difference in processing?

I'm not sure I even KNOW the difference between those two things; but I think they are separate properties.

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Re: An introduction to PVB.

Post by Boophoenix »

Lol, Lloyd is playing nice for those that read the above post we discussed this a little earlier. I mentioned I would inquire about it but figured I'd keep my first question simple then get more detailed.

Here is what I'm thinking just from the information I find from the Mowital data sheets the lower viscosity sure sends nicer if it's bindng properties hold up as well as the higher. The reasoning is to me it would be easier to handle. You could maybe spray it better and I would think it would distribute better into a formula.

When Lloyd mentions tackiness as I did wonder that if the lower viscousity would be as useful in rolling in our earlier phone conversation. The two properties are different and not tied together realy it seems. Maybe the tackiness can come into play as the PVB starts to bind so it wouldn't matter as much if the bindng ability isn't effected.

I added a different question above on the Poval as it seemed water soluble when I glanced threw the site on it. While retaining some of the uses of 60H. Since the PVB is made from the main ingredient of the Poval it was a short guess that it might be useful. That is if I understood what I was reading threw quickly.
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Re: An introduction to PVB.

Post by Lloyd »

<G>
Don't do that unless you want CONSEQUENCES, Boo! <G>

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Re: An introduction to PVB.

Post by Boophoenix »

:shock:
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Re: An introduction to PVB.

Post by Lloyd »

:lol:
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