Dragon eggs

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dave321
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Re: Dragon egg’s

Post by dave321 »

hows this work going ?
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richardh08
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Re: Dragon egg’s

Post by richardh08 »

Yes, an update is somewhat overdue.

How is it progressing? I think the best answer is ‘slowly’. Our efforts show that there is much truth in the saying that if you want to find a prince, you have to kiss a lot of frogs!

We now have two quite different compositions that show some promise, but both still require work. The first is fairly straightforward to mix, but has a somewhat variable performance and, at its best, is still too quiet. The second is consistently much louder, but is messy to make. Also, it has a very long and somewhat unpredictable delay. I suspect it would be difficult to keep it alight in the air.

Furthermore, this second formula uses a commercial product that is produced in various (secret) formulations by a variety of makers. Unfortunately, the version that we have found to give by far the best performance was bought some years ago from a manufacturer who seems no longer to be in business :(

A lot of our recent effort has been to investigate the properties of a range of potential replacement materials, with – so far – fairly modest success. On the positive side, one fortunate spin-off was our discovery of the usefulness of PVB as an almost universal binder.

I believe we now have a pretty good understanding of the necessary characteristics of a successful composition, which are:

1) A thermite-like reaction between a metal oxide and magnesium-aluminium alloy. The alloy appears to be essential, which leads me to suspect that there is, indeed, a two-stage reaction in which, perhaps, the magnesium is preferentially consumed in the earlier stage. Shimizu came to a similar conclusion when attempting to explain the mechanism of the earliest lead oxide-based formulations.

2) A component that rapidly transfers fire throughout the whole body of the micro-star and initiates the oxide-alloy reaction(s). I believe that to be the function of the nitrocellulose in classic compositions.

3) A material that preserves (some of) its structural integrity for a sufficiently long time to provide a degree of confinement for the final, and most energetic, reaction. The large mass (and therefore large inertia) of lead and bismuth atoms apparently provide this function in existing compositions.

It is the third of these three that appears to be the key to success. It is quite easy to produce micro-stars that explode after a short delay: it’s another thing entirely to get a few tens of milligrams of exploding material (in the absence of external confinement) to do so with a sharp and loud report.
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dave321
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Re: Dragon egg’s

Post by dave321 »

i am sure you and ken are familiar with the notes from mike swisher and Lloyd sponenberg re dragons eggs
but if not, you might find the following of interest

http://www.wichitabuggywhip.com/firewor ... .html#mike
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Pyro-Gear
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Re: Dragon egg’s

Post by Pyro-Gear »

Cheers Dave but it looks like we have cracked it, two independent tests have given the same results, we just need some air tests now.
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richardh08
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Re: Dragon egg’s

Post by richardh08 »

At last we really seem to be getting somewhere. Yesterday's formula was deemed worthy of an aerial test, and here it is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZtMENJb79E.

No lead, no bismuth, no antimony!
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sambo
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Re: Dragon egg’s

Post by sambo »

Hi Richard,

I tested your formula today. I would say you've cracked it, no pun intended. ;-)

I'm really impressed I have to say. I'd be dead chuffed if I was you !

Sam.
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Pyro-Gear
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Re: Dragon egg’s

Post by Pyro-Gear »

It was a team effort! but so far it is looking good. ;)
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richardh08
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Re: Dragon egg’s

Post by richardh08 »

Yes, it was a true team effort. You wouldn't believe the number of discussions that have gone on between Ken and me over the last six months, with lots of sharing of results and ideas on both sides.

The work on this formula isn't quite finished yet, as the latest advance came from a somewhat counter-intuitive (to me, at least) modification of a composition that had a no more than modest performance. A couple of factors still need to be worked out, with the potential to get some further small improvements.
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sambo
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Re: Dragon egg’s

Post by sambo »

Yes, sorry Ken ! I didn't mean to forget you.

Finding it difficult to leave this stuff alone now. I've just run a further batch, primed with monocapa. Got a real shock as it basically let rip. I ran a side by side test with my bismuth crackle and there is no discernible difference. In fact, your mix primed with monocapa ignites far more easily and I actually get a more complete combustion.

Not only is is cheap but it is in fact an improvement on heavy metal crackles in my opinion. I think you two should be careful with your intellectual property and have a think about how you release it, this is a game changer for the community.

I have another idea I'll PM you with.

Sam.
dave321
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Re: Dragon egg’s

Post by dave321 »

sambo wrote:Hi Richard,

I tested your formula today. I would say you've cracked it, no pun intended. ;-)

I'm really impressed I have to say. I'd be dead chuffed if I was you !

Sam.
any chance I could test the composition ?

the vid looks excellent ! :o
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Pyro-Gear
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Re: Dragon egg’s

Post by Pyro-Gear »

At this moment in time I am not in a position to release the details the reasons a varied.

We will however give further details once we have jumped a number of hoops.
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biffo
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Re: Dragon egg’s

Post by biffo »

Great work guys,they look really good.
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Pyro-Gear
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Re: Dragon egg’s

Post by Pyro-Gear »

6 months of work and around £800 thrown at it but we got there!
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Re: Dragon egg’s

Post by Starfire »

Congratulations Ken Richard and all involved .
Last edited by Starfire on Sat Sep 12, 2015 11:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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richardh08
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Re: Dragon egg’s

Post by richardh08 »

I guess it isn't particularly surprising that we have had a few requests for the formula. As yet, for a variety of reasons, we are not ready to publicise the results.

Firstly, although we are well past the initial research phase, there is some further development to be done. Evidence is mounting that a further modification will improve the performance, and that needs thoroughly investigating.

Secondly, following extremely helpful discussions with a member of the professional pyrotechnic community, a number of - hopefully minor - issues have been pointed out, and these need to be resolved.

Bearing in mind the difficulties that a number of people have had in the past with the more traditional compositions, we want to be as sure as possible of the consistency and reliability of the effect, and to get some idea of the formula's resilience to minor variations of both materials and technique.
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Pyro-Gear
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Re: Dragon egg’s

Post by Pyro-Gear »

Well I agree, just a little more work to finalise the composition now, although what we have so far is working fine.

Credits:
Yeah that’s the problem release the formula and techniques on manufacture publicly and Richard and Ken end up like Teslar, guests I would research Teslar!
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Re: Dragon egg’s

Post by Tyvole »

Congratulations, guys. It's good to see your perseverance (hopefully) paying off. Carefully conducted research activities such as this must surely win brownie points with the authorities for all of us in this small community, and we should thank you for that too. And yes, it's a smart move 'playing your cards close to the chest'. ;-)
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pyroarch57
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Re: Dragon eggs

Post by pyroarch57 »

Pyro-Gear wrote:This subject has discussed over and over again on forums but I would like to re kindle the subject.

Myself and Richard are researching the chemistry behind the so called dragon egg and Richard has come up with an interesting trend on the current formulas that are widely publicised, the findings are rather interesting.

So what we are looking for is a rolled dragon egg that explodes with one bang just like the Chinese eggs do, how do they do it? Do they use NC or a phenolic binder? Possibly Uriah formaldehyde? lead oxide bismuth? Any input would be welcome.
My guess is that they use CuOx rather than Lead/Bismuth, and a a phenolic with Potassium Pyroantimonate as a crosslinker.

It`s a pity that the research has ended - it would have been nice to have a formula that didn`t require the (messy) use of NC.

I might just take up the baton ;)
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Re: Dragon eggs

Post by sambo »

Hi Pyroarch,

the research is very much ongoing! I'm interested by your reference to potassium pyroantimonate as a cross-linker - could you elaborate at all ? Do you know what temperature / conditions would be required for cross-linking.

Thanks
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Re: Dragon eggs

Post by Pyro-Gear »

Just to add the research is in the R&D room and is still on-going cupric oxide well that’s an obvious one as we did submit the information to AFN, And we do have a working non NC DE
pyroarch57
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Re: Dragon eggs

Post by pyroarch57 »

Pyro-Gear wrote:Just to add the research is in the R&D room and is still on-going cupric oxide well that’s an obvious one as we did submit the information to AFN, And we do have a working non NC DE
Yes, It is a very obvious one, but your question was how do they do it in your post, so I gave my opinion.

I don`t see any non NC DE formula in the AFN article or on here?

As to the R&D room it seems not everybody is allowed in there according to Richards post.
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Re: Dragon eggs

Post by Tom Schroeder »

potassium pyroantimonate is an unusual curative for the phenolic do you have experience with it?

I have become a bit confused on what the goal this dragon egg project is? Is it a comp that can be rolled? Is it proving a point and not including any lead of bismuth? Is it not including any nitrocellulose in the formula? Is it making it water base? A clear set of objectives would be helpful in focusing the project.

Tom

Tom
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richardh08
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Re: Dragon eggs

Post by richardh08 »

Those are very good questions, Tom.

I think that the truth is that there are multiple, overlapping projects, none of which have ever been precisely specified. As far as I can see, all the active participants have slightly differing takes on the overall theme.

Originally, Ken and I set out to emulate a Chinese formulation which a) contains no lead or bismuth, b) contains no nitrocellulose and c) appears to be rolled, but almost certainly with a non-aqueous solvent. Our lack of success led us to diverge from our initial aims into the development of compositions that matched only point a).

Our route to that solution produced a few discoveries that led me to suspect that the current theory of crackle was, at the very least, incomplete. From that point onward, my main interest has been to try and understand what aspect(s) of the theory need to change. In that respect I have an interest in all crackle formulations, particularly if they show significant divergence from ‘standard’ compositions.

I believe Ken also shares that view, but he has an added interest in developing compositions that can be rolled, preferably with water as the activating fluid.

Sam came into the picture a little later, with the advantage that he is less encumbered by the baggage that Ken and I have gathered along the way. I value his contributions for their potential to shed light on the theory which is, for me, the central issue.

I’m not entirely sure what your and Lloyd’s motivations are. I do know that we value your contributions, from your vast store of knowledge and experience, together with your ability to provide a check on some of our wilder ideas.

Well, that’s my take on the matter. Please correct me if I’m wrong, or if I have missed some vital points.
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Lloyd
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Re: Dragon eggs

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Speaking only for myself, my purpose is to learn.

This is NOT to say that you and Ken are 'beginners' by any stretch of the imagination, but I find that often I learn as much from rank beginners as I do from other professionals. Sometimes a lack of insight into a particular matter leads to interesting approaches that might otherwise be eschewed as "impractical".

(The old expression, "I didn't know it couldn't be done, so I just went ahead and DID it!", applies.)

More than once, while manufacturing commercially, I've been given a hint by an amateur that sped up production or improved the quality of our commercial goods.

Now, I'm an amateur, also. I would hate to miss such a bit of knowledge here. And, if I can also contribute something, so much the better.

LLoyd
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richardh08
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Re: Dragon eggs

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Lloyd wrote:Speaking only for myself, my purpose is to learn.
I couldn't put it better.
Lloyd wrote:The old expression, "I didn't know it couldn't be done, so I just went ahead and DID it!", applies.
In our case, we knew it could be done, but we ended up doing something slightly different. :lol:
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Pyro-Gear
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Re: Dragon eggs

Post by Pyro-Gear »

I am no chemist I just think outside the box, and as an individual I always ask why, my training was based in Malta from the age of 14, and believe me back then it was pretty basic stuff.

The what if’s always are there with me, I try it if it don’t work I go back and try again and keep at it until I get some pay back.
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Lloyd
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Re: Dragon eggs

Post by Lloyd »

Ken,
There is often benefit to be had from 'only' having practical experience (and I don't minimize that, please!), over having 'formal' training.

I gain from both. But mostly, I'd say I've learned from practitioners rather than 'theorists'. (NO, Tom! I don't mean you! You're BOTH! <g>)

Lloyd
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sambo
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Re: Dragon eggs

Post by sambo »

Sorry to be so late in the reply.

I'm with Richard really, I'd quite like to establish exactly what is going on as I agree with him that the current hypothesis is incomplete. I would expect attaining this goal to lead to several further spin-offs along the way, as it already has done. I've learned more from doing this and following things through than anything else really. My biggest problem is finding the time.
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richardh08
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Re: Dragon eggs

Post by richardh08 »

I see, in the November issue of AFN, that Ian von Maltitz (who is a respected regular contributor, and whose claims to fame include authorship of the excellent “Black Powder Manufacturing, Testing and Optimizing”) has picked up on our crackle formulation. He has tested it with a much wider range of PVB grades than Ken and I have tried, and confirms our suspicion that all grades seem to be equally effective. He also gives some very helpful information about where to obtain PVB in the USA.
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Lloyd
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Re: Dragon eggs

Post by Lloyd »

I'm headed up to North Florida to meet with some prospective clients, and to pick up some chems related to this project.

Wish me well! (and the project, et al)

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Re: Dragon eggs

Post by Pyro-Gear »

I think reading between the lines Ian von Maltitz has had success with the mix.

Good luck on your trip Lloyd.
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richardh08
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Re: Dragon eggs

Post by richardh08 »

One of the reasons for publishing was to encourage others to experiment.

I've heard that one or two people have had problems with our formulations, but I've also seen reports that some people don't get 'conventional' crackle to work at the first attempt. I'm just waiting for the time that someone comes up with an improvement on our results.

Have a good trip Lloyd.
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dave321
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Re: Dragon eggs

Post by dave321 »

Richard and ken,

there is an interesting article on the journal of pyrotechnics website, you might find interesting reading, re a proposed mechanism of crackle -
Metal–Fluorocarbon Pyrolants: VII. Crackling Effect Based on Mg/KClO4/(C2F4)n
Monday, January 22nd, 2007
Ernst-Christian Koch

Abstract: A mixture of magnesium, potassium perchlorate, KClO4, and polytetrafluoroethylene, (-C2F4-)n, displays an audible crackling effect with nice sparks.

Keywords: crackling effect, magnesium, potassium perchlorate, polytetrafluoroethylene, Teflon™
Ref: JPyro, Issue 24, 2006, pp11-16
(J24_11)

its a relatively cheap price for download and therefore knowledge I think
check it out.
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richardh08
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Re: Dragon eggs

Post by richardh08 »

Yes, that's an interesting article. It supports a couple of ideas that I've had for some time now:

a) The fact that the mix contains only magnesium shows that a crackling effect is possible without both magnesium and aluminium being present.

b) In some formulations the delay is, at least in part, caused by the endothermic decomposition of one or more of the ingredients.
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Tom Schroeder
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Re: Dragon eggs

Post by Tom Schroeder »

Powdered Teflon is used as a slip additive in inks and coatings on plastic films and beer labels. It's sold in drums at around $8.00/lb. I took John Conkling's pyrotechnics course about 5 years ago and there was quite a but of discussion on magnesium/Teflon being used in decoy flares that have the heat signature of jet engines, apparently pretty large quantities of them are being made and they are made on a twin screw extruder with Viton A as the binder.

Tom
sambo
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Re: Dragon eggs

Post by sambo »

After my post about finding a solvent for Teflon I did try Teflon / Al and did manage to make a crackle with it. I couldn't find a suitable solvent which was expected. I haven't tried Viton as a binder, though - that I would need to look into.

I have also managed to make a crackle mix sensitised with a smidge of cryolite, size of grain can be an issue.
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