Dragon eggs

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Dragon eggs

Post by Pyro-Gear »

This subject has discussed over and over again on forums but I would like to re kindle the subject.

Myself and Richard are researching the chemistry behind the so called dragon egg and Richard has come up with an interesting trend on the current formulas that are widely publicised, the findings are rather interesting.

So what we are looking for is a rolled dragon egg that explodes with one bang just like the Chinese eggs do, how do they do it? Do they use NC or a phenolic binder? Possibly Uriah formaldehyde? lead oxide bismuth? Any input would be welcome.
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Re: Dragon egg’s

Post by davidg »

Got a few ideas to try oved Christmas.
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Re: Dragon egg’s

Post by Pyro-Gear »

It would be interesting to find out your results, so far I have rolled various compositions using Phenol and Uriah formaldehyde they do crackle but I can’t seem to get that one loud bang from a 3mm egg without using NC.
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Re: Dragon egg’s

Post by Jme86 »

http://youtu.be/lgU5SwFhnUU

Have you seen this? Looks interesting, they sound loud!
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Re: Dragon egg’s

Post by davidg »

A good pont to start from.
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Re: Dragon egg’s

Post by Jme86 »

I know they are bigger than dragon eggs I know of but I might give them a try!
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Re: Dragon egg’s

Post by richardh08 »

I've come across a few recipes with formulae similar to the ones in that video. It looks like the percentages aren't that critical over quite a wide range.

My investigations are on hold at the moment, for personal reasons, but I hope to get back to them before too long.
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Re: Dragon egg’s

Post by richardh08 »

Here is the start of my thoughts on this topic: http://www.pyrobin.com/files/DragonEggStudy.pdf

It hasn't got quite as far as I had hoped, and it may be a little while before I can take it further, but I hope there is something of interest in what I've done up to now.
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Re: Dragon egg’s

Post by Pyro-Gear »

Very interesting Richard, I have some more information that may be of help a document I have found states that all lead compounds were banned around 2011-2012 for use in the manufacture of fireworks.

Another article lists a formula for crackling stars eligibly of Chinese origin the recipe falls well in to your triangle but uses 10% Bismuth oxide but gives no indication as to what the binder consisted of.

Perhaps some reverse engineering may be in order.
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Re: Dragon egg’s

Post by richardh08 »

I'm all for a bit of reverse engineering :D
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Re: Dragon egg’s

Post by Tyvole »

richardh08 wrote:I'm all for a bit of reverse engineering :D
Wait... Isn't that what the Chinese are famous for? Maybe they're actually using a minor local adaptation of a European recipe? I'm not sure I could stand the irony if true.. :-)
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Re: Dragon egg’s

Post by Pyro-Gear »

I expect your right, Lancaster gives some formulas from the 70’s-80’s but fails to give information on the binder used? I have tested his formulas with NC and they work well enough but my tests when using Phenolic resin failed.

Now my basic analysis on a Chinese dragon egg is showing some interesting results in that there is no step priming it appears to be a per chlorate carbon silicone composition rolled over the core, the core itself dissolved in alcohol and then dried indicates that an extremely fine metallic alloy is used I would say around 600-1000# also the binder looks to be of all things Dextrin!

I forgot to mention congratulations on your fusing for your new year show what next? A part time job with a display company? ;)
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Re: Dragon egg’s

Post by davidg »

Just been looking through Lancaster's book. Need to rest my eyes now.
He does mention Shimizu's input for binders,anything from 20% by weight
Of 10% NC to SGRS.
Looking at current prices of bismuth trioxide,it looks like lead tet may be more
favourable.

Lancaster mentioned a third metal oxide but did not state which.
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Re: Dragon egg’s

Post by Pyro-Gear »

What I need to find Dave is Bismuth subcarbonate that’s what I think the Chinese are using.
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Re: Dragon egg’s

Post by davidg »

I have found a possible supplier. Unfortunately a minimum order of £250 is needed.
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Re: Dragon egg’s

Post by Pyro-Gear »

What amount Dave?
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Re: Dragon egg’s

Post by davidg »

Unsure as yet. I need to contact the head of sales to discuss it. I also need your permission to
make mention of this site and forums.
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Re: Dragon egg’s

Post by davidg »

Just recieved a quote for bis subcarb of £60/kilo from China. :? I am hoping that is a typo on their side.

Well just got email back 5kg $449.75 us. Maybe bismuth is out of the equation.
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Re: Dragon egg’s

Post by Tyvole »

Ouch! I reckon you could get REAL dragon's eggs cheaper than that!!!
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Re: Dragon egg’s

Post by Starfire »

Tablets for dogs have 30% maybe it can be extracted
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Re: Dragon egg’s

Post by Pyro-Gear »

Yes it has a wide range of uses and from what I understand is a cheaper option over trioxide I have found some at £8 a kilo but the shipping is horrendous, it would seem China has the monopoly here oh well back to the drawing board.
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Re: Dragon egg’s

Post by pyro1 »

My Sister got a chem pack from a Pyro convention and sent it to me, it had a bunch of chems 50g each bag, bismuth subcarbonate was one, it makes very nice dragon eggs, i just replaced 1 for 1 .
Let me know If you manage to get hold of some at a good price ken.
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Re: Dragon egg’s

Post by Pyro-Gear »

Well done Paul I thought it did! I will do my best to find a source in the UK.
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Re: Dragon egg’s

Post by pyro1 »

Its handy having family in the US sometimes. Would be nice to have a bigger amount to try some different percentages .
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Re: Dragon egg’s

Post by Pyro-Gear »

A little update on the Chinese formulation research, we now have a sample of 2mm dragon eggs for analysis I tested one and they do go with one loud bang, some lab equipment was purchased today so hopefully we will have some information in the near future.
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Re: Dragon egg’s

Post by Pyro-Gear »

Well we have made some progress and the results are fascinating, I am doing some tests as we speak the binder is at the moment an unknown quantity, we know for sure it is a formaldehyde, looking at the tests so far on the binder I would say it is Phenol formaldehyde, in my test batches of the binder the bright pink to red that is evident would indicate the use of phenol, this was also noted in the analyses of the stars conducted.

So far no trace of NC has been found.

Indications so far show a formulation that is nothing like anything we have seen before that has been posted on any public forum, more work is needed to finalise the amounts of chemicals used in the formula so more tests to be completed over the next week or so.
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Re: Dragon egg’s

Post by Pyro-Gear »

Minor update on my tests on the resin Phenol formaldehyde mixed with 10% acetone 90% water is still setting after 3hrs at 75c but a distinct smell of baker light is evident, however Uriah formaldehyde has set solid, could it be possible that the P resin may need a catalyst possibly hexamine over to you Richard.
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Re: Dragon egg’s

Post by Niall »

If I might put my paw in, I suggest that the phenolic has a strong grip on the water, rather than adding a catalyst, I would reduce the water in the ratio.
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Re: Dragon egg’s

Post by Pyro-Gear »

It took a while but I have found a catalyst pretty simple really, I can now get the Phenolic to set in 30 minutes! Water alone will not activate the resin it will just remain a sticky mess.
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Re: Dragon egg’s

Post by biffo »

Hi pyro gear I would be interested in buying some bismuth bicarbonate if you can source some ,also I would be grateful if you can let me know prices of charcoal you have for sale I want to try your cat coal. Interesting video from the state's there ,I'm just going to put some together to see if I get the same results. Many thanks biffo
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Re: Dragon egg’s

Post by Pyro-Gear »

Hi Biffo to be honest I would avoid using that recipe I have never had any luck with it, bismuth I have loads of the stuff tell me how much you need, I have a fair amount of cat wood charcoal in stock again tell me what amount you need and I will give you a price, plus I have NC that is nitrated to the legal limit.
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Re: Dragon egg’s

Post by Pyro-Gear »

Well I bet you all thought this thread had died, but Richard and myself have made a lot of progress in to the subject, we have a non-NC working dragon egg that is close to the Chinese version, not as loud but we are on the right track.
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Re: Dragon egg’s

Post by Starfire »

Looking foreword to the formula : )
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Re: Dragon egg’s

Post by richardh08 »

Don't you just hate it when someone lets the cat out of the bag :lol:

Not only no NC, but also no Pb and no Bi!

As Ken says, the main problem that still remains is the loudness, which needs increasing by a factor of about 5 to be comparable with the commercial stuff.

We're working on it.
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Re: Dragon egg’s

Post by richardh08 »

Here's an update on our progress.

No Bismuth.
No Lead.
No NC Lacquer...

https://youtu.be/I_OtCiC46EM

...and they said it couldn't be done!

Still more work to be done, but I think this shows that we are getting somewhere.
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Re: Dragon egg’s

Post by Pyro-Gear »

Oh the joys of having a resident physicist, that’s a major breakthrough seriously! My take on this is. from little acorns grow to be big trees, stunning work.

I figure I will need to replicate the formula and post a test video just as a proof of formulation for the members.

It can’t be done yeah right I think we did pretty dam good job of proving that point kudos, right we need to get out to Malta my friend and have a chill out before you get to famous!
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Re: Dragon egg’s

Post by Pyro-Gear »

richardh08 wrote:Here's an update on our progress.

No Bismuth.
No Lead.
No NC Lacquer...

https://youtu.be/I_OtCiC46EM

...and they said it couldn't be done!

Still more work to be done, but I think this shows that we are getting somewhere.

Here is a test I made on the formulation, I rolled the composition over mustard seeds until I started to get a by-product of smaller cores I screened out the larger cores for another day.

The cores in the video are 1-1.3mm in diameter they are rather loud I have to say, I will save the larger cores for a rocket!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0WMXsC ... e=youtu.be
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Re: Dragon egg’s

Post by davidg »

Looking promising.
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Re: Dragon egg’s

Post by Pyro-Gear »

More than promising Dave, we are still working on a few issues but let’s get them in the air? I have a slight suspicion we have cracked it.

The good thing is when we release formula you don’t have to pay! Having said that we may need a group discussion to decide what we should do? Sort of like a meet at the Dog and Duck in the UKPS fashion.
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Re: Dragon egg’s

Post by richardh08 »

I've just ignited one of the ones I made earlier - as part of the test series - which, at the time, didn't seem too interesting.

By far the loudest I've heard, I'm sure it was louder than the Chinese sample by quite a bit - going off at close range it scared the sh** out of me. It's a shame I didn't record it.

Ken and I have both noticed that some of these compositions seem to improve with age. It looks like it might be worth revisiting a few more of the older tests.
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Re: Dragon egg’s

Post by richardh08 »

That last result seems to be a one-off. None of the rest of the batch was as loud.

The effect seems to vary with grain size, so I'm coming to the conclusion that I just happened to have a larger than average grain in that one.
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Re: Dragon egg’s

Post by Pyro-Gear »

I think I may just have solved that issue, the binder is not distributed well enough, ball milling the binder (with the safe to mill components) give a more consistent result.

I have another batch drying there looking and sounding good so far, more to follow.
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Re: Dragon egg’s

Post by Tyvole »

This is looking (and sounding) really impressive guys. Really impressive.
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Re: Dragon egg’s

Post by Starfire »

Looking forward to the Dog and Duck
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Re: Dragon egg’s

Post by Pyro-Gear »

Tyvole wrote:This is looking (and sounding) really impressive guys. Really impressive.
Putting a physicist and an engineer together makes some good karma, plus a bloody good proof reader, it sort of works more to follow.
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Re: Dragon egg’s

Post by dave321 »

is there any chance of posting the formula ? :)

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Re: Dragon egg’s

Post by richardh08 »

We certainly intend to publish the formula ASAP, but we don't feel confident enough to do so at the moment.

As things stand, we can't get the effect to be as consistent as we would like; there's no point in publishing a formula that might not work for half the people who try it. We think we are close, but there are still many factors whose effect we don't understand. It seems to be a matter of determining which are significant and which are sufficiently irrelevant to be ignored.

For example, both Ken and I now know that the ball milling suggestion is a bad idea, which almost totally kills the effect. Metal particle size obviously has an effect in crackle compositions in general, but maybe that applies to some or all of the other components in our formula. Or is it the case that - as with some glitter formulae - too intimate mixing should be avoided? At the moment we just don't know and, unfortunately, getting answers to questions like these takes time.
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Re: Dragon egg’s

Post by richardh08 »

Just in case you thought we had forgotten!

We're still having problems with consistent behaviour. Performance varies between excellent and pathetic, without (as yet) any obvious cause.

When you take into account the possible component chemicals (say, up to 6), their proportions and mesh sizes, the methods of making micro-stars and their final size, and the nature and thickness of a priming layer (plus anything else we haven't thought of) the number of factors to consider is alarmingly large.

Our results so far convince us that we will get there in the end, but there don't appear to be any quick fixes, so it's going to be a long haul.
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Re: Dragon egg’s

Post by Pyro-Gear »

I think that long haul has dramatically shortened Richard :D
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Re: Dragon egg’s

Post by richardh08 »

Maybe.

In my experience, life doesn't always turn out the way you expect, so I'll continue to be cautious.

However, I'll agree that we have found one way to fix the variability in performance, and so might soon get to a truly viable solution.
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