Phenolic Resin

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Pyro-Gear
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Phenolic Resin

Post by Pyro-Gear »

Right ok let’s kick this off Phenolic resin have you used the product?
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richardh08
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Re: Phenolic Resin

Post by richardh08 »

No.

Why use more words when one will suffice?

Damn - just broken my rule!
Last edited by richardh08 on Fri Nov 29, 2013 7:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Tyvole
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Re: Phenolic Resin

Post by Tyvole »

Got some, haven't tried it yet.
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Re: Phenolic Resin

Post by Pyro-Gear »

richardh08 wrote:No.

Why use more words when one will suffice?

Damn - just broken my rule!
Go make some BP then granulate it with what I sent you @ 5% for 100 grams then listen to the crackle as it burns it is that hard, then make a star (best cut) leave to dry fully then drop the star in some water for (whatever you want time wise) dry it with kitchen towel then light it.
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richardh08
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Re: Phenolic Resin

Post by richardh08 »

Done the first bit!!

What's the best solvent?
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Re: Phenolic Resin

Post by Pyro-Gear »

Your world is your oyster, acetone water mix water at 10% will give fast results kneed the mix in to a dough then granulate through a mesh of your choice, 24hours or less dependent on temperature , in a drying cabinet it will set in 3hrs at 40c.
Nightsun
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Re: Phenolic Resin

Post by Nightsun »

Going to try it Mia as it sounds good. Pure acetone okay? I would think that using water ( as I have so many times ) pulls the nitrate out of suspension. The old military specs used water to stop ignition when milling and forced the result into pucks. Not sure if I am right, but what is your idea on this. Regards.
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Niall
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Re: Phenolic Resin

Post by Niall »

The pucks were for squashing the water out, then broken up for granular pieces.
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beatzanni
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Re: Phenolic Resin

Post by beatzanni »

i use phenol pretty awesome stuff for just about every binder use
Arran
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Re: Phenolic Resin

Post by Arran »

I have used at 7% as a replacement for dextrin when rolling stars. Isopropyl alcohol was used as the solvent. In the drying chamber they dry overnight.
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Re: Phenolic Resin

Post by Arran »

One thing though, keep the inside of your roller clean as you go, it's a right f##ker to get off when it's cured
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Re: Phenolic Resin

Post by Aardvark »

Agreed! Makes fantastic stars but as you've said... nasty to clean up.
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Re: Chemical Analysis

Post by Pyro-Gear »

I ran a few tests using the Chinese (lump) of Phenolic resin that I have I was assured that this was exactly what they used in the factory in china, I dissolved 5grms in alcohol and sat it in warm spot, after the alcohol had evaporated I was left with a transparent red/orange gel that showed no indications even after 24hrs at 40c of setting, I repeated the test again but used the 5% acid solution again leaving the resin in a warm environment, within 20-30 minutes the resin had started to set becoming basically a solid and had lost its transparency?

This would indicate that the phenolic in its raw state is not cross linked, if this is the case then obviously the solution used when rolling or pumping stars has to be a key factor in there manufacturing proses, whatever they use it has to be cheap and safe to use in compositions, possibly the deep red produced in your analysis could be a reaction with the chemical used to cross link the resin.

Another test that worked well but took around 3hrs to set was the use of C6H8O7 in souloution.
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Re: Chemical Analysis

Post by richardh08 »

I think you may be right. Although dissolving phenol formaldehyde in sodium hydroxide solution gave a brownish mixture, there were transient traces of the same type of purple as I saw with the Chinese binder close to the solid resin as it started to dissolve.

I get the feeling that the two substances must be very close chemically. Maybe the difference is, as you suggest, just the chemical changes induced by the setting agent/catalyst - whatever it is.

I'm not entirely happy (as I'm sure is the case for you too) at the idea of adding an acid - even a fairly weak organic one like citric acid - to a pyrotechnic mix. However, my limited knowledge of phenol formaldehyde resin chemistry tells me that only an acid will do the cross-linking job that causes it to set.
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Re: Chemical Analysis

Post by pyroarch57 »

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Re: Phenolic Resin

Post by richardh08 »

Pyro-Gear wrote:
In my limited knowledge the one issue I have found to be rather frustrating is the use of Phenolic resin in Chinese star formulations.

Using over the counter P resin plus a sample from China I could not find any difference in performance both types left a weak bond unless backed up with another binder, it soon became apparent that a catalyst was needed in the form of a weak acid, shock horror within 40 minutes both samples set rock hard using 5% *** acid in 250ML of deionised water.
The resin that seems to be increasingly used in Chinese formulations is, indeed, a bit of a puzzle. I know how to recognise it and even how to get an estimate of the amount, but I don't know what it is. It sets quite hard (which may indicate that they do use some kind of catalyst) and seems to be largely impervious to water once set.

It appears to be somewhat similar to phenol formaldehyde in that they both have a bakelite-like smell and both dissolve in warm sodium hydroxide solution. However, the solutions are of different colours (one sample of the Chinese product gave a deep purple solution, reminiscent of potassium permanganate) so they are clearly chemically different.
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Re: Chemical Analysis

Post by Pyro-Gear »

pyroarch57 wrote:This may be of some use...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenol_formaldehyde_resin
Thanks for the link it sort of confirms the use of an acidic base to cross link, thermo sets are another ball game.
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Re: Phenolic Resin

Post by dave321 »

i am sure the phenolic resin I got from Germany actually said on the label that it contained
9% hexamine
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Re: Phenolic Resin

Post by Pyro-Gear »

That’s interesting Dave the phenolic we have is from nitro Paris and yes it dose cross link with hexamine but the temperature required is worryingly high to get a good cross link.

If your phenolic was supplied pre mixed with hexamine it sounds like you have another type of phenolic I would be interested to know what colour the powder is as there are a number of resins out there, it could be you have the right one.
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Re: Phenolic Resin

Post by dave321 »

ken,

its a pale yellow /buff fine powder
obtained from pyropowders.de in Germany

http://www.pyropowders.de/sortiment/kun ... ndemittel/
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Re: Phenolic Resin

Post by Pyro-Gear »

Ah I thought as much, I know Fabien well enough so maybe I should get some in to test, the Nitro Paris phenolic is an orange powder much the same as the Chinese lumps I have, rather large lumps as well I may add, but they have found a use as ornaments as I could never get that to cross link under 100c
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Re: Phenolic Resin

Post by sambo »

I have the pyropowders.de phenolic resin too. Would you like a sample ?

Sam.
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Re: Phenolic Resin

Post by Pyro-Gear »

Oh yes that would put a few issues to bed Sam, many thanks from all the rest of the team.
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Re: Phenolic Resin

Post by sambo »

no worries, I'll send some out to you. I'm running a test for you right now. I've just put some in my dehydrator at 70 degrees and have left some out at room temperature overnight so i'll let you know what happens.
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Re: Phenolic Resin

Post by Pyro-Gear »

This is going to be interesting especially if it sets at room temperature my fingers are crossed.
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Re: Phenolic Resin

Post by sambo »

Hmmm...

at 70 degrees just skinned over, not set
at room temperature, has thickened but not set

I will try 2% boric acid dissolved in ethanol. Adding 1 drop of concentrated hydrochloric acid turns my product a very deep purple.

Ken, do you still want some ?
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Re: Phenolic Resin

Post by Pyro-Gear »

Cheers Sam but it looks like the two resins behave the same way, you will find I expect that at 70 degrees you will get a successful cross linking with 5% acetic acid in solution basically vinegar, you will note as the resin starts to cross link the residual water is driven out.

Unfortunately the use of acids would not be desirable for the experiment we have in mind so my only option now is to go with a Resorcinol resin.

For all my star composition I will be using PVB as this has proven to be a remarkable binder and fuel all in one bag all my tests on published compositions that use red gum/Dextrin/SGRS/ to name a few has shown that they can all be removed and replaced with the one binder at 6% with no adverse effects, in fact the colour stars seem to burn brighter and cleaner.
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