Crackle mix/dragon eggs

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Pooksta
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Crackle mix/dragon eggs

Post by Pooksta »

Has anyone had the same problems as I have with crackle mix or dragon eggs. Every composition I've tryed will not light in the air they light with fuse on the ground no problem. Any suggestions will be extremely helpful
This is the comps I've tried

Bismuth trioxide 75%
Magnalium 15%
Black copper oxide 10%
Aluminium atomised +5%
NC 10%

Bismuth trioxide 30%
Black copper oxide 40%
Magnalium (200 mesh) 30%
Bind NC

Bismuth trioxide 33.5%
Black copper oxide 33.5%
Magnalium 22.3%
Potassium perchlorate 6.2%
Red gum 4.5%
(Alcohol)
Starfire
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Re: Crackle mix/dragon eggs

Post by Starfire »

I made a batch last year and primed them with bp meal Swirling them in a bowl spraying with water and dextrin, They lit perfect,
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Pyro-Gear
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Re: Crackle mix/dragon eggs

Post by Pyro-Gear »

The second formula by David T is the one I like; I think your problem is the prime as stated by Star fire,
Potassium perchlorate 70
MG/AL 20
Red gum 10
Works well.
Pooksta
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Re: Crackle mix/dragon eggs

Post by Pooksta »

That's what I was thinking as well I have tried lots of different primes but not that one. Thank you for all the input.
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Re: Crackle mix/dragon eggs

Post by pyrojig »

I too have had issues with ignigion on the DE's as well. Here is what I have learned by the hard way. I used a bp/metal prime bound with dextrin and they failed. These did ignite but the pop was lame or non existent . The priming of these is criticle if to be used as is,or in a bp type star as a core. The intermediate or 1st prime needs to be a healthy layer of the above prime suggested like a perch type comp bound with NC or alcohol and no water . The use of these DE's in color stars is the only exemption for the excessive prime needed . The final coat ( if just to be used as a DE alone ) of prime I used was bound with NC or alc / resin, and the last prime was just a hot bp prime ( with 5%-10% metal or Si) also solvent based(no water).
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Re: Crackle mix/dragon eggs

Post by Pooksta »

With the 5th over I will be having a go at DE again Mia the prime you've suggested what mesh MgAl should I use.
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Re: Crackle mix/dragon eggs

Post by Pyro-Gear »

Pyrojig more or less nailed it in his post, but I use 350# MG/AL , I think this subject need some addressing so I will be putting further information later on the subject.
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Re: Crackle mix/dragon eggs

Post by Pooksta »

Thanx mate hope your feeling better now.
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Re: Crackle mix/dragon eggs

Post by Pyro-Gear »

Thank you Pooksta I am on better side now, not 100% but getting there.
Crackling micro stars/dragon eggs/crackling blooms have always fascinated me and I have used copious amounts of chemicals over the years to try and achieve the effect used by the Chinese in many commercial fireworks.
Lancaster gives three formulas.

89.00% Lead (II, II, IV) MG/AL 11%
Red lead 44% copper oxide 31% MG/AL 17% potassium nitrate 4% sulphur 4%
Bismuth trioxide 75% MG/AL 15% copper oxide 10%
All three of the formulas work well and so they should the Reverend Lancaster was no fool.
The missing part of the puzzle is how to confine any of the given formulas and how to prime the stars; lots of people say nitro cellulose is a must some people say double base powder from shot gun cartridges mixed with acetone (well that’s a no brainer for me) there is a risk with the nitro glycerine pooling out, going back to nitro cellulose lacquer as a binder and the majority of what you can obtain is a very low nitrate I may add, seems to work ok to a point.
But my thinking on this is that it is very unlikely that any commercial manufacturer would be using nitro as a binder and also the use of bismuth trioxide could be questionable given the current climate.
Moving on, my research and analysis on some commercial micro stars indicated that there was no nitro cellulose present but clearly there was a binder and this was phenol formaldehyde or possibly urea formaldehyde urea being the cheaper option, both are water soluble don’t get confused on other speculation I guarantee the compounds are water activated! So how did the commercial cores light Not very well I held a blow torch to one it glowed red for second and gave off a loud crack followed by another three cracks as the core split, next step was to sort some form of prime for the cores I started with potassium perchlorate 81% red gum 13% SGRS 6% (Shimizu changing relay) this worked very well! The initial core was 5mm I rolled the prime on to give a star around 8-9mm this would ensure enough heat was driven in to the core for ignition.
Next step was to attempt to replicate the commercial cores, if I have your interest that is.
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Re: Crackle mix/dragon eggs

Post by Pooksta »

You definitely have my interest I had some commercials crackle on the 5th if I can make something half as good I would be happy. The crackle mix on your videos looks great the one you worked with OB.
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Re: Crackle mix/dragon eggs

Post by Pyro-Gear »

Oh yes I know the one the formula was put on the white board at the office at OB but I have it in my head so I have knocked up a batch just to make sure I don’t want to mislead anyone, will test tonight and pass on the results.
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Re: Crackle mix/dragon eggs

Post by Pooksta »

Cool I've made up 3 batches the comps I posted up, hopefully I will have better luck this time still have to prime them. Is there any chance you could email me that composition?
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Re: Crackle mix/dragon eggs

Post by jonarthur33 »

Pyro-Gear wrote:The second formula by David T is the one I like; I think your problem is the prime as stated by Star fire,
Potassium perchlorate 70
MG/AL 20
Red gum 10
Works well.
I've just made up my first batch and by luck more than judgement they work quite well. So what do I dampen them with to get this prime to stick please.
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Re: Crackle mix/dragon eggs

Post by Pyro-Gear »

Right this thread is confusing what was your base mix ?
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Re: Crackle mix/dragon eggs

Post by jonarthur33 »

The second formula
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Re: Crackle mix/dragon eggs

Post by Pyro-Gear »

Potassium perchlorate 70
Magnalium 20
Red gum 10
use IPA
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Re: Crackle mix/dragon eggs

Post by jonarthur33 »

Thanks Ken :D
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Re: Crackle mix/dragon eggs

Post by Lloyd »

Y'know, in all the years I've been making pyro, I have never tried India Pale Ale as a solvent.

It's a nice after pyro 'solvent', but never tried it IN pyro before.

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Re: Crackle mix/dragon eggs

Post by Pyro-Gear »

:lol:
Lloyd wrote:Y'know, in all the years I've been making pyro, I have never tried India Pale Ale as a solvent.

It's a nice after pyro 'solvent', but never tried it IN pyro before.

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Re: Crackle mix/dragon eggs

Post by richardh08 »

At the risk of sending this thread even further off topic:

I note that - historically - some workers recommended using urine to moisten BP. Since, with the 'IPA' that Lloyd is talking about, there is very little difference between the 'input' and 'output', might it not be simpler to cut out the intermediate processing and use it straight from the bottle?

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Re: Crackle mix/dragon eggs

Post by Pyro-Gear »

Hmm yes I should have said Isopropyl Alcohol but I was in a rush to answer the guy’s question before any one else did :roll:
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Re: Crackle mix/dragon eggs

Post by snipperfizz »

Recently I have been reading an interesting document about dissections of Chinese commercial fireworks and the chemicals they use for their effects. http://pyrobin.com/files/Apex%20Pyro%20Compositions.pdf
The interesting thing here are the "crackling" or "cry" formulas they use;

MgAl -- 30
CuO --- 70

MgAl -- 20
CuO --- 60
Ti ------ 20

As these don't use either Bismuth, Lead or KClO4 I really want to test these.
Do crackling stars have to be bound by NC-lacquer or will ordinary dextrin + water (+ drying for over a week) do?
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Re: Crackle mix/dragon eggs

Post by Lloyd »

Snipper,
Your question (about needing NC) is exactly one of the questions that Richard is exploring in his crackle thread in the forum. He just recently moved it from the R&D room into member view.

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Re: Crackle mix/dragon eggs

Post by snipperfizz »

Alright! A very interesting read.

For now I did the only thing I could think of and made myself a small batch of MgAl/CuO 30/70 + 3% dextrin.
Granulated like I would do with pulverone, primed with some meal mixed with silicon.

According to the DragonEggStudy.pdf Richard posted I should expect a lot of relatively quite crackles, we will see.
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Re: Crackle mix/dragon eggs

Post by richardh08 »

Snipper, the second of the two compositions you quote has been discussed some time ago, on - I think - APC. I seem to remember that the effect was reported as being mid-way between a glitter and crackle.

I'll be interested to hear how either of them performs for you.
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Re: Crackle mix/dragon eggs

Post by snipperfizz »

The eggs are still drying but there was some composition left in my mixing cup. It kind of crumbled in my hands so it isn't dry enough, but I went out and lit some anyway.

http://pyrobin.com/files/VID_20180515_162220%5B1%5D.mp4

I would go as far as calling it a small succes! Can't wait to try them when they are dry and rock solid.

2 interesting things I noticed is that the size is really important, as you can see the first small piece gives a small "poof" while the bigger one gives more of a "whoosh".
The other thing is the red powder thats left behind after the reaction, my guess is it is Copper(I)Oxide (Cu2O).
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Re: Crackle mix/dragon eggs

Post by richardh08 »

snipperfizz wrote:I would go as far as calling it a small succes!
I wouldn't disagree with that!

Ken and I have found that dextrin will work, but isn't an ideal binder. We've had much better results using phenolic resin dissolved in alcohol.

And yes, with these types of composition, the grain size does seem to be important - as does the way they are ignited, e.g. the amount and type of prime you use.
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Re: Crackle mix/dragon eggs

Post by Lloyd »

"...the grain size does seem to be important - as does the way they are ignited, e.g. the amount and type of prime you use."
------------------
Indeed. I'll bet, if those had been uniformly primed (rather than being ignited just at one 'spot'), they'd have both shot with a report!

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Re: Crackle mix/dragon eggs

Post by snipperfizz »

Alright, so I just read the AnotherCheapCrackle.pdf (the info on crackling is kind of everywhere on this forum :P ). So I will try the prime mentioned in that article:

KNO3 - 49
Parlon - 12
Charcoal - 10
MgAl #350 - 10
Fe2O3* - 9
Sulfer - 6
Dextrin - 4

*The original composition asks for Fe3O4, but it is later explained Fe2O3 can be used aswell.

Will post more once I have updates!
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Re: Crackle mix/dragon eggs

Post by Lloyd »

Snipper,
Having made (really) hundreds of pounds of crackle commercially, I can tell you that all I used to prime mine was 'rough powder', slightly rich in oxidizer, and with +5% dextrin as the binder.

The only concession I made to that process was to use potassium dichromate solution as the wetting-water, in order to 'inert' the Mg/Al while it's wet. I simply placed the (sized) granules in a tumbler, moistened them with the dichromate water, and coated them with rough-mixed powder (no milling, just 'bag' ingredients). I _think_ the dichromate might also contribute some to the explosion characteristics.

When coated with prime a bit less than 1mm thick (actually, JUST enough to make sure no 'grey' points stuck out), I dusted them with an excess of the dry prime, in order to give them a 'fuzzy' surface, in order to take fire easily all-around. The more uniform the initial ignition, the better their performance.

They worked with very good reliability and timing.

All that said, yours is probably harder to ignite than mine, and might require the extra heat from the metal in your prime. But you owe it to yourself to try the 'simple solution', also.

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Re: Crackle mix/dragon eggs

Post by snipperfizz »

For now they are coated with some meal mixed with 10% silicon. I was thinking of putting on another layer of the new prime or cooking up a new batch entirely. Perhaps I should just wait for them to dry and see what they do before moving on...

Pyro needs patience, I just wish I had some :lol:
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Re: Crackle mix/dragon eggs

Post by richardh08 »

It's probably best to wait and see how the existing batch performs before trying something different. Patience is a virtue!
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Re: Crackle mix/dragon eggs

Post by snipperfizz »

An update on my crackle project: the eggs I made are dry and primed but they remain extremely crumbly. I can't pick them up with my fingers as that will crush them. They do still preform as good as in my previous posted video but they can't be used in any kind of pyrotechnic device.

I think I didn't add enough binder and it has been pointed out before dextrin isn't the best binder for dragon eggs. Right now I don't have phenolic resin or NC-laquer, the binders I do have are: parlon, red gum and CMC (and of course dextrin). I think CMC might be my best option, but I'm not sure...
Last edited by snipperfizz on Mon May 21, 2018 10:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Crackle mix/dragon eggs

Post by Lloyd »

Snipper,

You're kind-of 'on your own' on that. I haven't tried any binders except NC, and most other amateurs have succeeded only with that or phenolic resin.

The Chinese most-certainly use something other than NC, but reports vary on what it is. Most say it is a form of 'discard' phenolic from other chemical processes.

Please... try CMC, and tell us how it works for you. This is a wonderful, engaging, and ongoing exploration. Eventually, we're going to discover an affordable crackle that performs well, and all amateurs (me included) will benefit from your work.

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Re: Crackle mix/dragon eggs

Post by richardh08 »

A few years ago, I analyzed a small sample of Chinese crackle. Both the crackle and the priming layer were bound with some kind of resin that was insoluble in any of the common solvents that I tried

It broke down under the action of sodium hydroxide to produce a deep purple solution, and a brown solid was precipitated when the solution was re-acidified. The precipitate had a characteristic smell that indicated it was based on phenol, but that's as far as I could go.

Since then, Ken and I have tried many organic binders, but none appear to be as effective as either phenol formaldehyde or NC. However, as far as I can recall, neither of us has tried CMC, so it might be worth giving it a go.
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Re: Crackle mix/dragon eggs

Post by Boophoenix »

I believe I tried red gum with the G2 and wasn’t impressed or failed. Since Snip is new I should add I pressed my samples rather large and had hit and miss results.

CMC could be an interesting choice. It’s shown some interesting prospects in recent BP experiments. It will be interesting to see what ya find trying it out.

I have to ask though is yours a fine powder or a little gritty? It seems mine and DaveF’s are different that way. Mine almost looks blade milled with some sliver look to it and Dave’s has what could best be described as small sand like particles in with the fines. Curious about that in case it doesn’t preform well if might be an issue.
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Re: Crackle mix/dragon eggs

Post by snipperfizz »

It has been a while, finished my exams, and the eggs are dry and rock solid! Will be priming them tomorrow with some meal + silicon. My CMC is a fine powder, like powdered sugar. Granulating like pulverone wasn't possible for me as everything clogged together as soon as it left the sieve. So this time I hand rolled the eggs in different sizes (1 - 10mm) so I can find the 'optimum' grain size.

I tested one unprimed egg which was about 3mm in size, and was surprised about the loudness and pitch of the crackle! So far CMC seems to work much better than dextrin. I will post some videos once they are primed and dried again.
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Re: Crackle mix/dragon eggs

Post by Boophoenix »

Sounds like you’re getting there. Congrats
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Re: Crackle mix/dragon eggs

Post by richardh08 »

I look forward to seeing (and hearing) the results.
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Re: Crackle mix/dragon eggs

Post by snipperfizz »

Prime is too thin... it burns but doesn't light the egg...

I used some CMC as binder in the prime. The thing with CMC is, on contact with water it becomes this thick goo, like a sticky toothpaste consistency. This makes a composition unusable to granulate with a sieve and also pretty messy to prime stars with. So my next layer of prime will be bound by dextrin.
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Re: Crackle mix/dragon eggs

Post by Pyro-Gear »

CMC as a binder is not a lot of good for DE's.
It’s not too bad for stars and black match but for dragon eggs, it has far too much bulk density so you would need to thin it down.
PVB urea formaldehyde works well as a substitute for NC.
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Re: Crackle mix/dragon eggs

Post by snipperfizz »

Finally got around making a video of my eggs.

http://pyrobin.com/files/Crackle%20Star%20Test.mp4

As you can see it is a bit of a hit and miss, the first one goes great: prime works, nice delay and a real 'bang'. The second one looks more like a fast burning white micro star...

I will try and make a mine or other small device with them next.
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Re: Crackle mix/dragon eggs

Post by richardh08 »

That's not a bad start. It will be interesting to see how they behave in the air.
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Re: Crackle mix/dragon eggs

Post by snipperfizz »

Made a small (15mm) mine with about 15 eggs and lit it, here the result:

http://pyrobin.com/files/CracklingMine.mp4

So again, not all stars worked, but the ones that did worked really good in my opinion. If I can get them a bit more consisted they might be nice star cores, or perhaps as microstars in a gerb. I think the inconsistency is either the prime, the size, or both of those. The problem is that with the thick layer of prime I applied eventually it is hard to see the original grain size of an individual egg. Perhaps it is something else?
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Re: Crackle mix/dragon eggs

Post by Lloyd »

Snipper, over a couple of decades of making crackle commercially, I came to the opinion that 1) granule size is the MOST important aspect, and 2) that priming needs to be done to the bare-minimum necessary to ensure ignition.

To those ends, I repeatedly screen-sized my crackle granules, so that any one batch was nearly-exactly of one mesh size. Then, to prime, I wet-rolled the granules with prime (in my case 'weak powder') until they were minimally - but completely - covered. I did not build up the prime any thicker than to simply ensure that every exposed surface of the grains was JUST covered with prime. That meant that 'peaks' were barely covered, and valleys fairly thickly-so. But it always worked -- and well!

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Re: Crackle mix/dragon eggs

Post by richardh08 »

I totally agree with Lloyd about the importance of the granule size. I find that it is even more important when dealing with compositions that don't contain bismuth or lead oxides. In those cases, getting them to be as compact and round as possible also helps to make them behave consistently. I find that tumbling them before they are dry helps to smooth out any rough corners.

Crackle not bound with NC is generally less easy to ignite, so probably needs a bit more prime than Lloyd uses on his granules. You just need to experiment with both factors until you find a solution that works for you.
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Re: Crackle mix/dragon eggs

Post by dave321 »

do you think or know of anyone who has tried to make small eggs 2 to 3mm on a tablet press? and then prime them.

would this be a feasible alternative production process ? even on a single station press production of "tablets! / eggs would be much quicker ?
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Re: Crackle mix/dragon eggs

Post by Lloyd »

Dave,
I'd personally fear running crackle in a tabletting press. I've many hundreds of hours working with both tablet machines and crackle. My sense is that crackle composition is too friction-sensitive for the sort of side-wall 'rubbing' that goes on during tabletting.

OTOH, the method we developed for granulation of the crackle dough produces VERY regularly-sized and pretty dense grains with little of that outside surface roughness that 'fractured' crackle manifests.

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Re: Crackle mix/dragon eggs

Post by richardh08 »

In addition to Lloyd's concerns, I would worry about how the grains were bound. Without a solvent-based binder, I don't see how the grains would hold together while the prime was applied.

There was a relatively recent discussion on FW regarding the creation of crackle grains by molding them in a rubber matrix. I'm not surprised that it died without coming to any definite conclusion. Screen slicing, rolling, or some similar process, seem to be the only sensible ways of forming crackle grains.
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Re: Crackle mix/dragon eggs

Post by dave321 »

it was just a question I thought worth asking,
always worth seeking out others opinions on things, especially when they have considerable experience.
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