interesting new blue compositions

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dave321
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interesting new blue compositions

Post by dave321 »

i just came across this reference (as you do) from the book
"chemistry of high energy materials" 4th edition by Thomas m klapotke

quote ......"In a joint research effort between LMU Munich (Klapötke and Rusan) and ARDEC
(Sabatini), the development of the first known perchlorate-free and chlorine free
blue-light-emitting pyrotechnic formulation has been developed. The optimal
formulation (Tab. 2.12b) relies on the generation of copper(I) iodide (CuI), which
serves as a strong blue-light-emitting species…."

copper iodate Cu(IO3)2 20 30
guanidine nitrate 50 35
magnesium 10 9
urea --- 21
copper 15 ---
epon 828 / epicure 3140 5 5
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Lloyd
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Re: interesting new blue compositions

Post by Lloyd »

When was that published?

I developed a perchlorate-free (but not chlorine-free) blue composition for a well-known theme park organization in 2009.

But the iodate formula is interesting! Thanks for posting the reference.

(Now, I wonder what EPA will have to say about iodates!!!)

Lloyd

PS... ah! 2017! Heh! Still, very interesting. I wonder what environmental or health impacts the iodine creates...
L
"Pyro for Fun and Profit for More Than Sixty Years"
dave321
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Re: interesting new blue compositions

Post by dave321 »

lloyd,
.........."In addition to the environmentally friendly goal of eliminating perchlorates, the formation of
polyiodated biphenyls – which are likely to form during the combustion process −
is not perceived to be an environmental hazard. Polyiodated biphenyls are used as
contrast agents for radiological purposes in medicinal applications......

so make of that what you will.

care to share your perchlorate free blue ?
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Lloyd
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Re: interesting new blue compositions

Post by Lloyd »

"care to share your perchlorate free blue ?"
00000000000

I wish I could! It's still being produced commercially by the company I managed, under the "Eco-Tech" trademark.

If they ever stop, I'll be able to, then.

Lloyd
"Pyro for Fun and Profit for More Than Sixty Years"
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richardh08
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Re: interesting new blue compositions

Post by richardh08 »

I think Lloyd likes to tease :lol: His perchlorate-free blue is one of a number of his discoveries that he is duty-bound not to reveal because they are in commercial use.

But that looks to be an interesting book. I see that he also talks a little about thermites, which is clearly of interest to me. I may have to get a copy.
Even when I'm wrong, I'm convincing.
sambo
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Re: interesting new blue compositions

Post by sambo »

I'm one of the first with a penchant to dabble in "new blues" but the iodate blues are rather underwhelming they burn with very low light ouput and for too long. However, well - bromate blues that's a different story ;-)
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Lloyd
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Re: interesting new blue compositions

Post by Lloyd »

And, I suspect that no matter what, halides are going to remain necessary to get colors!

Lloyd
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sambo
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Re: interesting new blue compositions

Post by sambo »

yes, without a doubt. There are some interesting bespoke compounds with halides, fuel and colourant - I remember Tom mentioned a few I think derived from Azoles and some from terephthalates.

Tris glycine strontium (ii) perchlorate is easy to make and very effective for red but needs some additional fuel / oxidiser to keep it burning brightly.
dave321
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Re: interesting new blue compositions

Post by dave321 »

sam,

are you referring to patent US3296045A by any chance?
seems it needs at least ~10 to 20% magnesium for a good red
sambo
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Re: interesting new blue compositions

Post by sambo »

that's the one! dead easy to make ;-)
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richardh08
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Re: interesting new blue compositions

Post by richardh08 »

I couldn’t resist getting a copy of that book. It has a lot more information about HE than I really want to know, but the general chemistry and the sections on recent developments in thermites, and pyrotechnics in general, are of interest. The descriptions of test methods and techniques might also prove useful to me.

However, I wouldn’t recommend anyone else to buy it. The whole tone of the translation is very stilted and I get the feeling that the translator doesn’t have a thorough grasp of English grammar. That might be carried over from the original German, which has a much less flexible grammar and a relatively smaller vocabulary, which results in the frequent need for compound words (one of my favourites is Lastkraftwagen – which roughly translates as load-power-vehicle – and means ‘lorry’ or, even more concisely, ‘truck’). But there is no reason to carry that over to the English translation. I keep finding sentences that I have to read several times before I can extract the intended meaning, and sometimes I get the feeling that Google Translate could have done better – or, at least, no worse.

A couple of errors on page 1 – the continued propagation of the myth of the existence of ‘the German monk Berthold Schwartz’ and the claim that BP-cored ‘time blasting fuse’ burns at 135 meters per second – lead me to wonder about the existence of further mistakes that are beyond my competence to spot. I know of one incorrect statement regarding thermites; the author claims that nobody has managed to use arrested reactive milling to create an Al-CuO nanothermite, despite the fact that this technique was reported in the literature in 2010.
Even when I'm wrong, I'm convincing.
Pyro
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Re: interesting new blue compositions

Post by Pyro »

I know that this is an old thread and that i'm new here and haven't read everything yet but I think it might be worth to mention that the excited copper iodide molecule does not work as a blue emittor in pyrotechnic flames. The article by Magdalena Rusan is unfortunately flawed!

It seems that much work from the Klapötke group can be questioned and it is sad to see that the struggle of getting funding for their research has led them into an environmentalistic approach that certainly does not do any good for the pyrotechnic industry. For example they claim that strontium is toxic and should be replaced by lithium and I can guarantee that would never work from a practical or economical point of view.

There are exceptions, like Dominykas Juknelevicius who makes very interesting research on blue flames and blue strobe formulas, but the rest of the group seem to me to be lacking the "spark" and real interest in pyrotechnics that in my opinion is needed to really perform in this field.
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richardh08
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Re: interesting new blue compositions

Post by richardh08 »

Welcome to the forum, Pyro.

That's an interesting insight into the research group and their motivation.

It is true that if you ingest a sufficient quantity of a soluble strontium compound it will kill you. But the same can be said of common salt, and nobody is going to claim that salt is toxic.
Even when I'm wrong, I'm convincing.
dave321
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Re: interesting new blue compositions

Post by dave321 »

well from the papers on bromate and iodide blues ive read, by klapotke,
and i think i posted references elswhere on this forum, i would have to disagree,
it seems they can actually produce good "bright" blues
Pyro
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Re: interesting new blue compositions

Post by Pyro »

Bromates work very well for blue flames but not the iodates.
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